Need Help: Hitting behind the ball.

[Crim]

Thanks ya'll, it's gotten much better. Among all the drills I've done to fix the problem...one of the best things I did happened out of nowhere. I was watching Tiger's and Jack's swings from the side one day and I noticed that they both were staring at the ball straight on like you should be...but they were almost seemingly staring more with their left eye, whereas throughout my entire swing I'm looking directly forward. Well I turned my head ever so slightly right at address and whaddya know...no more chunks.

Weird? Maybe, but it worked i guess.

[JetFan1983]

Thanks ya'll, it's gotten much better. Among all the drills I've done to fix the problem...one of the best things I did happened out of nowhere. I was watching Tiger's and Jack's swings from the side one day and I noticed that they both were staring at the ball straight on like you should be...but they were almost seemingly staring more with their left eye, whereas throughout my entire swing I'm looking directly forward. Well I turned my head ever so slightly right at address and whaddya know...no more chunks.

Weird? Maybe, but it worked i guess.

That kind of neck alignment tweak that you made is a setup piece instructors give students to help them tilt left more on the backswing. It's helpful in encouraging the shoulders to turn steeply enough while also helping to stop the golfer's head from moving up and away from the target as he swings back.

Conversely, one would suggest the neck tilt the opposite way slightly if you wanted to help stop a student from dipping the head towards the ball on the backswing/turning his shoulders too steeply.

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From my experience, learning what impact is actually supposed to feel like can take a lot of faith and a lot of hard work, especially if you don't have an instructor present when learning it. It's a feeling most people are not familiar with at all if and when they first experience it. So keep that in mind when trying to change the picture.

A good basic rule of thumb is that keys 1 and 2 play a major role in making key no.3 "flat left wrist" a more natural occurrence at impact. If you get your weight forward correctly and can keep your head relatively steady throughout the strike, then that will go a long way towards you achieving good impact alignments with your wrists.

All that being said, we don't know which aspect of your wrist alignments are going south the most, so that would determine how you would proceed in your curriculum -- you're doing evolvr, right? They'll have some important things to say to you on this issue. For example, some people need to feel more palmar flexion of the lead wrist while others need to feel like they're underloading the wrists and arms on the backswing only to increase various wrist angles in the downswing (P4.1 to P5).

Anyway, as has been said, fat and thin shots are the result of the same thing: the swing's low point is behind the golf ball. The only difference is the golfer makes an extra compensating move or moves (like retracting the arms or something) to prevent the club from crashing violently into the turf before reaching the ball. Instead, you get thin contact of some kind. So essentially, both issues stem from the same underlying problem.

When monitoring the swing's low point, you always want to check 1) where the golfer's weight (or pressure) is at and through impact 2) how steady the head remains throughout the majority of the swing and 3) where is the handle of the club located throughout the player's downswing? Because if it is too far back at impact (like the golfer's weight) then the low point will move back as well.

I'm hesitant to give you specific tips here because there are several variables that determine how you as a student should proceed. If someone has a shitty grip, for example, that can make the flat left wrist at impact harder to achieve. The same thing can be said of a backswing that overloads the arms, shoulders, and/or wrist angles. All basic swing structure is lost and club head throwaway occurs far too early in the downswing.

I assume you're doing evolvr. If so, I would just follow their plan. Obviously it doesn't hurt to ask questions though.

But as you can see, there are several variables at play here as to why a random person hits behind the ball. That's why it's important to have someone in your golfing world who can walk you through some of this stuff. Like evolvr or something. Or better yet, someone in-person who doesn't suck

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EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crim

What can I do to fix this. I noticed a quick fix might be to play the ball further back then I normally do, but that just looks and feels awkward to me.

That might be an ok "quick fix" on the course but it's not a good habit to get into. Check out those Key #2 drills and get that piece better.

Yea, don't move the ball more and more back. That'll just make it harder to swing on plane. Can you theoretically play a ball off or near your back foot? Yes. You'd probably have to play huge push draws, but you could do it.

It's better though to have a more neutral ball position for a number of reasons, but I think the big one is that it encourages a more shallow angle of approach into the ball and is easier to control swing direction.

Another "quick fix" that might work for you is to focus on a spot a few inches in front of the ball instead of the ball itself.  This helped me a while back, and whenever I go out with people who only play once or twice a year, that's the only tip I give them.  Often times it makes a big difference.

But that doesn't get to the root of the problem.

Yep. For anyone new here who is wondering, this was made famous by Bobby Clampett in his book the Impact Zone . It's basically the premise for his entire book, actually.

[iacas]

Yep. For anyone new here who is wondering, this was made famous by Bobby Clampett in his book the Impact Zone. It's basically the premise for his entire book, actually.

Don't sell that summary short. It IS the whole book. :)

[joekelly]

You are saying that Clampett advises us to focus our vision on a spot 2 inches in front of the ball   (towards the target)  on every shot? And that is all Clampett says in his book?

[iacas]

You are saying that Clampett advises us to focus our vision on a spot 2 inches in front of the ball   (towards the target)  on every shot? And that is all Clampett says in his book?

No.

[Ernest Jones]

You are saying that Clampett advises us to focus our vision on a spot 2 inches in front of the ball   (towards the target)  on every shot? And that is all Clampett says in his book?

He also says that once you are getting the ball to start on the correct line, you know your path is correct and to start working on face angle to control curve so................... I don't know if he's ever corrected that part of the book or if he even knows that he's wrong. It's a decent book that can help some players with contact issues but it's far from the panacea that some claim it to be.

[scopek]

Thanks ya'll, it's gotten much better. Among all the drills I've done to fix the problem...one of the best things I did happened out of nowhere. I was watching Tiger's and Jack's swings from the side one day and I noticed that they both were staring at the ball straight on like you should be...but they were almost seemingly staring more with their left eye, whereas throughout my entire swing I'm looking directly forward. Well I turned my head ever so slightly right at address and whaddya know...no more chunks.

Weird? Maybe, but it worked i guess.

That's interesting. Have you checked to see if you're right or left eye dominant? If not, just google how to check. Jack Nicklaus and Ben Hogan (not sure about Tiger) are/were apparently left eye dominant and they set up this way. My guess is that you're left eye dominant.

[MS256]

That's interesting. Have you checked to see if you're right or left eye dominant? If not, just google how to check. Jack Nicklaus and Ben Hogan (not sure about Tiger) are/were apparently left eye dominant and they set up this way. My guess is that you're left eye dominant.

I am left eye dominant and always had the urge to play the ball more forward in my stance than average (sometimes to a fault). That urge became less over time but I still slightly turn my head when playing short irons and wedges without even realizing it. I suppose I could try to fix that but never saw a reason to worry about it.

[AmazingWhacker]

I guess there are at least a few reasons a golfer might hit fat shots.  I used to hit fat shots because I was swaying back off the ball as well as swinging directly at it vs through it.  Those were some pretty big fat shots . .like 2, 3, 4 inches behind the ball.

Nowadays I hit them a little chubby sometimes and I feel like it's because I'm hanging back - not getting my weight forward enough and club face still open at impact(ish).  But why am I hanging back?  I feel like it's because I didn't make a good takeaway.  In my case, I tend to quit on the body rotation and let my arms get out of synch with my body.  Sometimes I get around to quick and hit it a bit thin . .sometimes a bit too late and hit it fat.

It's odd but the more I practice, the more I learn and the better I get . .the more important my takeaway/backswing becomes to me.  I feel like if I get to a good position at top, not just my club but my whole body . . If I'm on plane and loaded up at the top of my backswing, I practically can't miss.

[Hammer 4]

I guess there are at least a few reasons a golfer might hit fat shots.  I used to hit fat shots because I was swaying back off the ball as well as swinging directly at it vs through it.  Those were some pretty big fat shots . .like 2, 3, 4 inches behind the ball.

Nowadays I hit them a little chubby sometimes and I feel like it's because I'm hanging back - not getting my weight forward enough and club face still open at impact(ish).  But why am I hanging back?  I feel like it's because I didn't make a good takeaway.  In my case, I tend to quit on the body rotation and let my arms get out of synch with my body.  Sometimes I get around to quick and hit it a bit thin . .sometimes a bit too late and hit it fat.

It's odd but the more I practice, the more I learn and the better I get . .the more important my takeaway/backswing becomes to me.  I feel like if I get to a good position at top, not just my club but my whole body . . If I'm on plane and loaded up at the top of my backswing, I practically can't miss.

Re: rotation and the takeaway. You should have a 90 degree shoulder turn once your arms get parallel to the ground, you can put a small ball between your arms that will keep your torso moving with your arms. I've always found that if I didn't have a 1 piece takeaway, everything fell apart.

[Crim]

Thanks jetfan once again, I understand all the keys pretty well but key #3 has been the hardest for me to wrap my mind around. I'll have to continue to watch and work on flat left wrist until I get a feel for it. And no I'm not doing evolvr.

@others, I tried the 2 inches in front of the ball thing for awhile, it worked for a bit but I just don't have any confidence swinging the club unless i'm looking directly at the ball. And no confidence = bad swing. If anything though it gave me the feel of a correct/flush shot a couple times.

I've found that the two best things so far that I've changed to stop the chunks has been to turn my face/neck slightly to the right...and to straighten my back leg more. Jetfan as you may remember I have quite a bit of knee flex, if I focus on lessening the flex in my back leg it seems to help against the chunks AND I get a better weight transfer.

To be honest I've yet to test this stuff on the range or course. I've been hitting into a net at home so I'm curious as to if these two new things will help eliminate the chunks when I get out there.

I guess there are at least a few reasons a golfer might hit fat shots.  I used to hit fat shots because I was swaying back off the ball as well as swinging directly at it vs through it.  Those were some pretty big fat shots . .like 2, 3, 4 inches behind the ball.

Yeah just 2 weeks ago I was hitting like 2 inches behind the ball and a couple times it jarred my wrist so bad that I thought I was going to injure it. That's when I knew I really had to change something fast.

[mvmac]

Thanks jetfan once again, I understand all the keys pretty well but key #3 has been the hardest for me to wrap my mind around. I'll have to continue to watch and work on flat left wrist until I get a feel for it. And no I'm not doing evolvr.

Achieving Key #3 is usually the result of good Keys 1/2 and good sequencing. So it's not a position you try to "hit" or feel the wrist be flat. Just wanted to make that clear.

[Crim]

Achieving Key #3 is usually the result of good Keys 1/2 and good sequencing. So it's not a position you try to "hit" or feel the wrist be flat. Just wanted to make that clear.

Haha, that's actually what I was hoping all along. I didn't really understand what a "flat left wrist" was so I just figured maybe if I get the other keys down...#3 would come automatically.

[mvmac]

Haha, that's actually what I was hoping all along. I didn't really understand what a "flat left wrist" was so I just figured maybe if I get the other keys down...#3 would come automatically.

Key #3 is shaft and lead arm are inline at or just after impact, don't want it to line up before.

[JetFan1983]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crim

Thanks jetfan once again, I understand all the keys pretty well but key #3 has been the hardest for me to wrap my mind around. I'll have to continue to watch and work on flat left wrist until I get a feel for it. And no I'm not doing evolvr.

Achieving Key #3 is usually the result of good Keys 1/2 and good sequencing. So it's not a position you try to "hit" or feel the wrist be flat. Just wanted to make that clear.

Yea, hey, Mike (and Erik if he's reading this). I always wondered this? And I don't think I'm off-topic but feel free to let me know if I am.

Why aren't key no.4 and key no.3 reversed in the sequence? I've thought more and more that, like you said, key no.3 is sequencing as much as it is keys 1 and 2.

Key no.4 sweet spot path plays a major role in key no.3.

A) Am I off-base here? and B) What was the line of thinking with having key no.3 precede key no.4? Was that to make it more accessible to new people? I could see how reading "Sweet spot path" could be confusing at first, and seeing "flat left wrist" being something familiar. But it does seem to me you can't reach key no.3 all that well without a good key no.4.

Thanks and sorry if this is off-topic. It's possible I've just misunderstood the reason the keys are ordered in the way that they are.

[14ledo81]

[QUOTE name="mvmac" url="/t/73759/need-help-hitting-behind-the-ball/18#post_978224"]   [QUOTE name="Crim" url="/t/73759/need-help-hitting-behind-the-ball/18#post_978097"]   Thanks jetfan once again, I understand all the keys pretty well but key #3 has been the hardest for me to wrap my mind around. I'll have to continue to watch and work on flat left wrist until I get a feel for it. And no I'm not doing evolvr.  [/QUOTE] Achieving Key #3 is usually the result of good Keys 1/2 and good sequencing. So it's not a position you try to "hit" or feel the wrist be flat. Just wanted to make that clear. [/QUOTE] Yea, hey, Mike (and Erik if he's reading this). I always wondered this? And I don't think I'm off-topic but feel free to let me know if I am. Why aren't key no.4 and key no.3 reversed in the sequence? I've thought more and more that, like you said, key no.3 is sequencing as much as it is keys 1 and 2.  Key no.4 sweet spot path plays a major role in key no.3.  A) Am I off-base here? and B) What was the line of thinking with having key no.3 precede key no.4? Was that to make it more accessible to new people? I could see how reading "Sweet spot path" could be confusing at first, and seeing "flat left wrist" being something familiar. But it does seem to me you can't reach key no.3 all that well without a good key no.4. Thanks and sorry if this is off-topic. It's possible I've just misunderstood the reason the keys are ordered in the way that they are.

Why couldn't you have a flat left wrist with a outside in path? Or am I confusing the meaning of key 4?

[iacas]

A) they're not specifically ordered. B) key 3 affects 4 more than the opposite. ;-) Plus 3 is easier than 4. :-D

[JetFan1983]

A) they're not specifically ordered.

B) key 3 affects 4 more than the opposite.

Plus 3 is easier than 4.

Haha, okay. You're just saying that because of your A4.15.

"B" is surprising to me, but maybe it shouldn't be. I'll think about it.