Are you a real golfer?

[turtleback]

Oliver H,

You're entitled to your opinions. Next week, maybe you can tell us what it takes to be a Real Narcissist. You certainly have that down pat.

Wow, THAT was uncalled for.  We want folks to stay around, not chase them away.

[bste]

Ha ha now that was funny, I'm not even a real walker. I can't walk without tripping or falling every now and then, and taking stairs well let me tell you....

[Gunther]

I enjoyed the video.  Disagree with the idea though.  Completely agree with @David in FL that you defined "Real Golfer" quite beautifully with your opening. Another thing I loved was your "swing" when you were demonstrating the "Mishits" stage.  That was classic. :beer: I do have a problem with one thing you said though:  At the 2:53 mark you mention "trapped draws," which, by itself, makes me cringe, but you add onto that by saying "which means shots with ball-turf contact."  That makes no sense.  The only way to make the ball contact the turf without actually topping it is to have your hands so far forward that you have a negative dynamic loft.  That is never producing a good shot. The whole fascination with that phrase bothers me.  It makes no sense whatsoever.  Is it just because Johnny Miller likes to say it?  I really wish somebody would tell him to stop saying it.

Confused by your trap-draw comment. This is something I try to achieve with my swing. Pinching the ball between the club and the turf, achieved by hitting down on the ball. Are you saying you've seen some slo-mo demo or something that shows this is actually impossible, that when hitting down on the ball the sensation might be pinching but in reality the ball shoots upward immediately?

[oliverheuler]

Quote:

There is no real need to be able to hit the two shots that were mentioned and it certainly is not a defining characteristic of a real golfer.

I hope it became clear after my last posting that I also don’t see this as a defining characteristic of a real golfer. And I also agree that there is no real need to be able to hit the two shots. A good example would be Craig Perry winning a PGA-Tour Event at Firestone with a huge fade. He almost brushed the trees on the left with every drive. He simply can’t hit a draw or a fade with any acceptable consistency.

But there are young golfers who like to swing as neutral as possible so that they can hit fades as easy as draws. Those players may find it helpful to practice the recommended shots regularly. If your a scratch golfer just hitting one straight 7-iron in the regular height after the other doesn’t stimulate their brain enough. A certain amount of variability during practice is helpful in these cases. Tiger Woods used to practice 9 different shots to one target: Straight, draw and fade, each in low, high and standard trajectory.

[Jeremie Boop]

Confused by your trap-draw comment. This is something I try to achieve with my swing. Pinching the ball between the club and the turf, achieved by hitting down on the ball. Are you saying you've seen some slo-mo demo or something that shows this is actually impossible, that when hitting down on the ball the sensation might be pinching but in reality the ball shoots upward immediately?

The ball never travels down towards the turf unless you top it.So, yes, the ball shoots upward immediately even on those "trapped" type shots. You are just removing loft by the forward tilt of the club handle.

[oliverheuler]

I think when and where you hinge your wrists is pretty much a preference or style thing more than anything else. A quick look around the Tour will demonstrate a pretty wide spectrum on that front. It is certainly not a commonality and therefor not a fundamental of a good swing.

Whereabouts in Germany are you located? Is it close to Austria?

I agree 100 percent. At the same time we see 95% of amateurs releasing too early and/or scooping the ball. So the question is: What is the best way to teach them to achieve a certain amount of lag and a leaning shaft at impact?
Usually they are told to hold the angle longer, to keep the wrists passive in the downswing or to learn a proper dynamic chain from the ground up or from the inside out. Believe me I tried all three methods for years with most of my students and myself. I have to admit that I wasn’t really successful. The approach I am using now works a lot better. Of course I can’t produce miracles but I am a lot happier as a teacher. I have never heard of anyone in the states who does it that way. And I didn’t invent it myself, but learned it from a guy who spent his live researching biomechanics. Since he is no golf pro I altered it quite a lot but still I give the credit to him. But I am no missionary. I don’t want to preach to anyone who his happy with what he knows and how he performs.

[Golfingdad]

Confused by your trap-draw comment. This is something I try to achieve with my swing. Pinching the ball between the club and the turf, achieved by hitting down on the ball. Are you saying you've seen some slo-mo demo or something that shows this is actually impossible, that when hitting down on the ball the sensation might be pinching but in reality the ball shoots upward immediately?

I don't think you really need a slo-mo demo.  The club has loft that is always more than the amount that you are "hitting down on it."  Certainly it can be a "sensation" but it can't really happen that the ball travels downward to be "pinched" into the turf unless you have negative loft.  Imagine trying to hit the ball off your back foot with your hands as far forward as you can, with a driver off the turf.

Any decent shot the ball HAS to shoot upwards immediately because it's struck with loft on the club.

Another way to look at it is that the "new ball flight laws" work vertically just the same as they do horizontally.  The ball starts in the direction that the face is pointing.  Unless you can get that face pointing AT THE GROUND - which would require some 35 or 40 degrees of forward shaft lean with a mid iron - then the ball can't go down.

[mvmac]

Confused by your trap-draw comment. This is something I try to achieve with my swing. Pinching the ball between the club and the turf, achieved by hitting down on the ball. Are you saying you've seen some slo-mo demo or something that shows this is actually impossible, that when hitting down on the ball the sensation might be pinching but in reality the ball shoots upward immediately?

Think of where the face is pointing at impact, it's not pointing into the ground. It may be a feel that some have but the ball is certainly not going into the ground. Golf clubs have loft, ball starts where the face is pointed.

[iacas]

I think we agree that a draw needs a combination of a slightly open club face in relation to the target and a club head that is moving further to the right so that the face is slightly closed in relation to the path of the club head.

I'd simply like to request that you more strongly consider your choice of words. I realize too that English is not your native language, but, for example:

• We use the term right-pointing and left-pointing (and words "right" and "left") in relation to the target line.
• We use the terms "open" and "closed" in relation to the path.

That avoids confusing golfers by pointing out that a draw has to be hit with an "open" face.

There is more to that elsewhere on the site. Like… here: . (That article also has a lot of other stuff but the right/left/open/closed stuff is in there too. I'm sure it's elsewhere as well.)

Yes, I agree with the ceteris paribus addition. But in reality an out to in swing is often accompanied by a scooping motion (hands behind ball at impact or at least not in front) and an in to out path is often accompanied by punching motion (hands quite a bit in front of the ball). In this case the second golfer will hit the ball higher than the first one.

In those cases one of the guys isn't breaking 90, so I don't see much point in comparing the two. A lot of good golfers also hit little pull-draws and push-fades too… and yet there's also Lee Trevino who played big push-cuts but hit the ball pretty darn low.

I am just saying I see little value in making comparisons like that given how many variations and differences you can find.

No you don’t need to hinge your wrists late to hit a draw or to get your hands ahead at impact. But I would say: Hands ahead helps to make the draw more playable, since the necessary path for the draw moves the bottom of the swing back and the leaning shaft will will move it forward again.

I disagree that an outward path "moves the bottom of the swing back." It might TEND to given how people TRY to do it (and definitely does in my experience for the vast majority of people), but it's not a law of geometry or something.

I don't like the terms much, but I can "sweep release" and hit a draw or hold the angle as long as possible and hit a draw, too.

The question whether it is helpful to hinge your wrists very little in the backswing and therefore late in the downswing is a very controversial issue. I will produce a whole video on that topic to have a better foundation for a discussion that will surely be very controversial as well. But let me just postpone that a little.

I don't think it's controversial. Some players do it, others don't. Some should do it more, others might be better served to do it less.

There is no model. Lots of things get it done. You seem to have a model.

I agree 100 percent. At the same time we see 95% of amateurs releasing too early and/or scooping the ball. So the question is: What is the best way to teach them to achieve a certain amount of lag and a leaning shaft at impact?

Usually they are told to hold the angle longer, to keep the wrists passive in the downswing or to learn a proper dynamic chain from the ground up or from the inside out. Believe me I tried all three methods for years with most of my students and myself. I have to admit that I wasn’t really successful. The approach I am using now works a lot better. Of course I can’t produce miracles but I am a lot happier as a teacher. I have never heard of anyone in the states who does it that way. And I didn’t invent it myself, but learned it from a guy who spent his live researching biomechanics. Since he is no golf pro I altered it quite a lot but still I give the credit to him. But I am no missionary. I don’t want to preach to anyone who his happy with what he knows and how he performs

I've never really used those methods either. Inline Impact is Key #3 in our system. I'm pretty good at teaching it… :D

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To all: Let's stick to the actual topic where we can… it's not about the wrist cocking and hinging and stuff.

[Gunther]

I don't think you really need a slo-mo demo.  The club has loft that is always more than the amount that you are "hitting down on it."  Certainly it can be a "sensation" but it can't really happen that the ball travels downward to be "pinched" into the turf unless you have negative loft.  Imagine trying to hit the ball off your back foot with your hands as far forward as you can, with a driver off the turf. Any decent shot the ball HAS to shoot upwards immediately because it's struck with loft on the club. Another way to look at it is that the "new ball flight laws" work vertically just the same as they do horizontally.  The ball starts in the direction that the face is pointing.  Unless you can get that face pointing AT THE GROUND - which would require some 35 or 40 degrees of forward shaft lean with a mid iron - then the ball can't go down.

Interesting. I generally get tired-head when I read stuff about ball-flight laws, not something I've considered much. I know what I'm trying to achieve when I think about a trap shot or a draw or cut, know how to set up my body to make them happen and that's as far as I go with it. Not always successful, especially the trap, but I will say that I always kind of thought the ball gets pinched between the turf and club and as such, the ball initially moves downward. So, appreciate you and jboop and mvmac clarifying that for me.

[mvmac]

Interesting. I generally get tired-head when I read stuff about ball-flight laws, not something I've considered much.

Getting off topic but I'll make this quick and simple. Ball starts where the face is pointed and curves away from the path. That's the ball flight laws.