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Putting Green Penalty Stroke Counting Towards Total Putts

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

Have a question regarding the putting surface rules and the total putts stat. As far as I know, when a player lifts his ball without marking he is assigned a two stroke penalty. He then must replace the ball and putt out and add the two strokes. 

 

My question is, do these two strokes count towards his total putts traditional statistic on the hole and for the round? Or would it still be tracked as a three putt? The question was brought up when a member of our group was trying to get out of lifting the ball before his 3rd putt during a 4 putt game within the group. Thanks for your opinions. 

post #2 of 20

It is a one stroke penalty for lifting without marking provided the ball is replaced.

 

I haven't a clue about your statistics question, sorry - it has nothing to do with the Rules of Golf - but if it does affect your stats, it's just be one stroke.

post #3 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by amongthecedars View Post


My question is, do these two strokes count towards his total putts traditional statistic on the hole and for the round?

Most stat tracking programs let you track penalty strokes. Of course the penalty is addd to the total strokes for that hole. But you would not incorporate the penalty to your putting statistics. For example, say you`re on in two, two putt, but have a penalty. Your score is 5, but your putting stat for the hole is 2.
post #4 of 20
Why Is there a penalty for not marking. You would think that who cares if you marked it or not. As long as it is replaced. What if you remember a peice of grass that it was next to. I understand that it probably wouldn't work out well in competitions and what not but technically I don't see why the mark is important.
post #5 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post

Why Is there a penalty for not marking. You would think that who cares if you marked it or not. As long as it is replaced. What if you remember a peice of grass that it was next to. I understand that it probably wouldn't work out well in competitions and what not but technically I don't see why the mark is important.

Simply, because rule 20-1 requires it.....

20-1. Lifting And Marking

A ball to be lifted under the Rules may be lifted by the player, his partner or another person authorized by the player. In any such case, the player is responsible for any breach of the Rules.

The position of the ball must be marked before it is lifted under a Rule that requires it to be replaced. If it is not marked, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke and the ball must be replaced. If it is not replaced, the player incurs the general penalty for breach of this Rule but there is no additional penalty under Rule 20-1.
post #6 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post

Why Is there a penalty for not marking. You would think that who cares if you marked it or not. As long as it is replaced. What if you remember a peice of grass that it was next to. I understand that it probably wouldn't work out well in competitions and what not but technically I don't see why the mark is important.
well its certainly an obvious way to provide your fellow players with visual confirmation that you arent a cheat, and to clear your ball, not just physically, but also mentally, from the putting surface in a game where the winner gets 1.5 million or so in the majors. Suprisingly, I dont have that problem, but nontheless I consider a non marking Player to probably be that clueless dipstick that won't get out of the left lane when I am going down the interstate.
post #7 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post

 As long as it is replaced.

Perhaps that gives a clue.

 

You left your ball and think you remember the yellow blade of grass it was near (how near?). You move away from your fellow competitors line and a few minutes later you seek out a yellow blade of grass. Are you really sure you aren't 2' nearer? Are your fellow competitors sure? 

post #8 of 20

I have heard of someone  hitting a putt too hard off the back of the green and went into tall fescue and they could not find it, ultimately he had to take a lost ball penalty and either drop or place another ball on the green, so did that one get added to putting strokes?

post #9 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopster View Post
 

I have heard of someone  hitting a putt too hard off the back of the green and went into tall fescue and they could not find it, ultimately he had to take a lost ball penalty and either drop or place another ball on the green, so did that one get added to putting strokes?

 

Assuming it was a putt from on the putting green, the subsequent shot would also be a putt from on the putting green.  Even really bad putts count as putts.   ;-)

 

And yes, the ball would be placed, not dropped.  Rule 20-5(d) applies.....

post #10 of 20

But ultimately there is no actual rule that applies to counting putts.  There are popular conventions, but many players don't even agree on them.  You do what you think is appropriate and live with it.

post #11 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

But ultimately there is no actual rule that applies to counting putts.  There are popular conventions, but many players don't even agree on them.  You do what you think is appropriate and live with it.

Agree.  You just have to be consistent on how you individually record total putts and GIR.

post #12 of 20
I was in this group. Watched the guy miss his 2nd putt, then he reached with his putter and pulled the ball back to his feet where he proceeded to pick it up. So the question is, would the pull back with the putter count as a stroke?

And if he did want to replace the ball and putt again with the stroke penalty, would he replace the ball where he pulled it back? Or where he picked it up?

Our "Ape" competition is pretty serious. Hah
post #13 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morsy88 View Post

So the question is, would the pull back with the putter count as a stroke?

And if he did want to replace the ball and putt again with the stroke penalty, would he replace the ball where he pulled it back? Or where he picked it up?

 

The scrape back would not count as a stroke as he was not making a "stroke" as defined in the Rules.  An excerpt of the definition is:

 

"A “stroke’’ is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball ..."

 

The ball is to be replaced at the spot where it came to rest after the initial stroke (i.e. the place from where he pulled the ball).

post #14 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopster View Post
 

I have heard of someone  hitting a putt too hard off the back of the green and went into tall fescue and they could not find it, ultimately he had to take a lost ball penalty and either drop or place another ball on the green, so did that one get added to putting strokes?

I recalling hearing that on the PGA Tour, where they do track total putts, that they count strokes from off the green as putts when they occur AFTER a player has made their first putt from on the green.  Not sure how penalty strokes factor in, but had they found their ball in the tall fescue and played it back onto the green, the PGA tour would have counted that shot as a putt.

post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopster View Post
 

I have heard of someone  hitting a putt too hard off the back of the green and went into tall fescue and they could not find it, ultimately he had to take a lost ball penalty and either drop or place another ball on the green, so did that one get added to putting strokes?

I recalling hearing that on the PGA Tour, where they do track total putts, that they count strokes from off the green as putts when they occur AFTER a player has made their first putt from on the green.  Not sure how penalty strokes factor in, but had they found their ball in the tall fescue and played it back onto the green, the PGA tour would have counted that shot as a putt.

 

What about the time during the Masters that Tiger putted the ball off the front of the 13th green into Rae's Creek, then pitched back over the creek from the fairway after dropping.  I wouldn't count that as a putt.  The penalty for dropping out of the hazard, maybe, but not the pitch.  It simply isn't a putt.

post #16 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

What about the time during the Masters that Tiger putted the ball off the front of the 13th green into Rae's Creek, then pitched back over the creek from the fairway after dropping.  I wouldn't count that as a putt.  The penalty for dropping out of the hazard, maybe, but not the pitch.  It simply isn't a putt.

 

I think he actually re-putted.

 


 

Here's what I'd do. I'd call everything after I'm on the green a putt, except the penalty stroke, I'd just call a penalty stroke. Because this happens once, what, every few decades?

post #17 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

What about the time during the Masters that Tiger putted the ball off the front of the 13th green into Rae's Creek, then pitched back over the creek from the fairway after dropping.  I wouldn't count that as a putt.  The penalty for dropping out of the hazard, maybe, but not the pitch.  It simply isn't a putt.

I agree that it is not actually a putt, but I have heard/read multiple times that the PGA tour doesn't count any putts before you are on the green (i.e. using your putter from the fringe) but then counts everything as putts once you reach the green (even if you use a wedge and don't have a clear line at the hole).  Here is what the USGA says:

 

RULES FAQ

 

Rule Misc.

How to Count Putts

Q.  Our club has a game each week for the lowest putts. What is the recommended method for counting putts?

A.  The Rules of Golf do not address how statistics are kept. In USGA Championships where putts are counted, the player has made his first putt once he has made a stroke from the putting green and all subsequent strokes are counted as putts. It is up to the Committee in charge of the event to determine how putts will be counted and the method used for counting.

http://www.usga.org/rulesfaq/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=123&Rule=100

So, from a rules standpoint, when you putt a ball from the green to off the green, the next shot is not a putt (in that you can't mark the ball), but from a STATISTICS standpoint, the USGA would have counted Tiger's pitch (edit- or whatever his next stroke was) as a putt.

 

post #18 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

What about the time during the Masters that Tiger putted the ball off the front of the 13th green into Rae's Creek, then pitched back over the creek from the fairway after dropping.  I wouldn't count that as a putt.  The penalty for dropping out of the hazard, maybe, but not the pitch.  It simply isn't a putt.

 

I think he actually re-putted.

 


 

Here's what I'd do. I'd call everything after I'm on the green a putt, except the penalty stroke, I'd just call a penalty stroke. Because this happens once, what, every few decades?

 

You may be right.  I don't remember the follow up, just the one that ran off the green.

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