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When Dinosaurs Die Off

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iacas

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This is the AFTER golf swing of a guy in my PGA classes. The player was hitting the ball a bit low (I wasn't able to record an initial video, but I didn't see a lot of axis tilt and someone told me he had reverse axis tilt at A4…).

The instruction he got? Go to the top by not rotating his hips, but by "loading" into his trail side, from the top "stay behind the ball" and throw the clubhead at the ball.

With the ball on a tee, this raised the ball flight. Absolutely. On the shots where he didn't hit several inches behind the ball.

The instructor mentioned Johnny Miller as a sort of role model for "keeping your weight behind the ball." Johnny Miller had one of the most powerful leg drives forward ever. His pressure and weight are both well forward.

Clue: if you have a pet theory, go on YouTube or load up your stored swings in Analyzr or V1 and see how many pros actually exhibit the thing you're thinking about. If it's none, as would be the case here (with irons, anyway), perhaps move on to something else instead of making it a core piece of your instruction.

Dinosaurs don't do that. Not every old instructor is a dinosaur, but dinosaurs eventually died off. I just wish it would happen much sooner in golf than it appears to be… I'll be dead and we'll still have dinosaurs out there roaming the lesson tee. Fewer than we have now, but they won't be extinct.

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I find my lack of understanding in golf instruction.... disturbing.

This kind of information (from the previous instructor) makes it difficult to trust anything I hear or my ability to comprehend it... as in is his suggestion a feel or do I actually keep my weight back?

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Amazing! One of my problems is when getting my weight into my left side I let my head go with it, sliding toward the target prior to impact. That's a real shot killer for me.

I would think the above advice would lead to skulls, tops, and the occasional quacker!

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I won't be able to send a video for about 6 weeks or so, but now I'm wondering...I was taught to play almost every shot with the ball forward in my stance. I was told to look at Harmon, Nicklaus and others. I do "feel" as if my weight is "back" as I swing. I know my weight favors the left only slightly at set-up.  

I have seen my swing on video and it is not like the ones pictured. I believe I have more "drive" into the ball in the downswing, and I'm not so upright. But now I wonder: Is the instruction I received considered "wrong" as well? Thanks, -Marv

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Not to threadjack (my favorite cheese) but is the difference between sweeping and picking the weight shift?  Nicklaus said he played every shot off his left instep and had a vertical swing.  This works well off mats and low grass, but when you hit off a good bit of grass especially with a fairway wood shouldn't you play the ball back and hit more level? I feel like hitting off of mats and crappy golf course semihardpan ruins the release.

Edited by TallSouthern

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1 hour ago, TallSouthern said:

Not to threadjack (my favorite cheese) but is the difference between sweeping and picking the weight shift?  Nicklaus said he played every shot off his left instep and had a vertical swing.  This works well off mats and low grass, but when you hit off a good bit of grass especially with a fairway wood shouldn't you play the ball back and hit more level? I feel like hitting off of mats and crappy golf course semihardpan ruins the release.

The longer the club, the more forward it's usually played in the stance.

You seem to have a good number of questions… Post some of them in this forum: https://thesandtrap.com/forums/forum/12-instruction-and-playing-tips/.

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There may not be that big of change in golf instruction from the dinosaurs' perspective. The real dinosours did die off completely. Today's golf dinosours are being replaced with younger dinosours' teachings.

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17 minutes ago, Patch said:

There may not be that big of change in golf instruction from the dinosaurs' perspective. The real dinosours did die off completely. Today's golf dinosours are being replaced with younger dinosours' teachings.

I disagree.

There's a limit to how much we can know. To how finite information is while still being "helpful." We have the science to measure just about everything we could want to measure right now. We've reached a saturation point, basically.

The older dinosaurs didn't know a lot of what they were talking about. They thought weight transferred back in the backswing, or that the path primarily influenced the start direction, or other types of things we now know to be false to a rather detailed level.

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33 minutes ago, Patch said:

There may not be that big of change in golf instruction from the dinosaurs' perspective. The real dinosours did die off completely. Today's golf dinosours are being replaced with younger dinosours' teachings.

I agree with @iacas. If you follow anything going on in the golf instruction world, you'd understand where this is coming from. The old instructors didn't have technology that we have today. They didn't know the answers so they guessed. They went by what they saw, felt, or what others' described they were doing. They used what tools they had available to them at the time. I don't blame them for that.

The problem is with instructors who refuse to accept new information. Even though we know how ballflight works, they still teach it the old (wrong) way. Those are the dinosaurs. As the world changes around them, they refuse to change with it. I absolutely blame them for that.

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2 minutes ago, billchao said:

The problem is with instructors who refuse to accept new information. Even though we know how ballflight works, they still teach it the old (wrong) way. Those are the dinosaurs. As the world changes around them, they refuse to change with it. I absolutely blame them for that.

Right.

I know plenty of older instructors who continue to adapt and grow.

Those guys are not the dinosaurs.

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On 12/25/2017 at 9:34 PM, iacas said:

Marv, huh?

The above is not what you want, these images.

LOL! I returned to this string and saw this. I don't think I was thinking I should emulate your pictures...But not sure. I was just out of hospital and full of good cheer the doc gave me! Best, -Marv

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Instructors should use launch monitors, pressure plates, cameras, and all the tech we have to learn more themselves.  Too many coaches use old-worn out feelings and phrases that may/may not work for their students.  Using tech that can measure what the student is doing builds validity and trust between the coach and their students.  I guess many of these dinosaurs don't want to invest in the tech or think they won't know how to use it, but it is to their benefit as a business and it better serves their students with quantifiable data that can be trusted.

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1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

I guess many of these dinosaurs don't want to invest in the tech or think they won't know how to use it, but it is to their benefit as a business and it better serves their students with quantifiable data that can be trusted.

I think it's even more simple than not wanting to invest in tech. They don't understand it, they fear it and they don't want to admit they were wrong.

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46 minutes ago, mvmac said:

I think it's even more simple than not wanting to invest in tech. They don't understand it, they fear it and they don't want to admit they were wrong.

Some of them, yeah I'd agree.  I do think some of them, like Joe Pro, are looking at the cost of such things.  For Joe Pro, dropping tens of thousands of dollars just might not (in their head) be a profitable investment.  Golf is pretty expensive for most anyway, so putting the price of the tech into your lessons' price tag for the student might not bring in more students or return.  I think it is a complicated issue and not simple at all.  I'm sure there are some pros that fit into your format, but for many it may be much more than that.

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3 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Some of them, yeah I'd agree.  I do think some of them, like Joe Pro, are looking at the cost of such things.  For Joe Pro, dropping tens of thousands of dollars just might not (in their head) be a profitable investment.  Golf is pretty expensive for most anyway, so putting the price of the tech into your lessons' price tag for the student might not bring in more students or return.  I think it is a complicated issue and not simple at all.  I'm sure there are some pros that fit into your format, but for many it may be much more than that.

You don't need to own a Trackman to learn from those who do. That's not why those instructors are dinosaurs.

It's about being closed to new ideas and refusing to accept that what they teach is wrong.

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3 minutes ago, billchao said:

You don't need to own a Trackman to learn from those who do. That's not why those instructors are dinosaurs.

It's about being closed to new ideas and refusing to accept that what they teach is wrong.

I know, but if the topic is about good, sound teaching then the only way to do so is to measure.  I don't think you're getting a "real" lesson if tech isn't used.  Just watching 2D video and looking at positions isn't ideal for golf.  The golf swing is a motion.  The old guys who just look at video aren't getting the whole picture.  I think a real lesson is one where it utilizes all the technologies we have available.  Only then can you accurately measure what's going on in the motion and have reliable data to show your student.

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6 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Some of them, yeah I'd agree.  I do think some of them, like Joe Pro, are looking at the cost of such things.  For Joe Pro, dropping tens of thousands of dollars just might not (in their head) be a profitable investment.  Golf is pretty expensive for most anyway, so putting the price of the tech into your lessons' price tag for the student might not bring in more students or return. 

I guess I was referring more to learning from tech and evolving out of dinosaur thinking. You don't need to spend thousands of dollars to convey the correct ball flight laws, correct pressure shifts, correct macro body movements, etc. You can still utilize a great deal of the knowledge without having the tools.

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There are some pretty respected instructors who are putting their knowledge online for 1/100th the cost of a radar and there is tons of info. If I were aspiring to be a pro and limited funds, that would be one of my first options.

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Well I’ve also seen the mix of actually having TrackMan yet still not teach the modern (correct) mechanics. All that data available, a very nice TrackMan hitting station indoor and outdoor yet the guy still preaches short game being the most important component of golf and there is no ‘hip slide’ toward the target...only rotation.

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1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

I know, but if the topic is about good, sound teaching then the only way to do so is to measure.  I don't think you're getting a "real" lesson if tech isn't used.  Just watching 2D video and looking at positions isn't ideal for golf.  The golf swing is a motion.  The old guys who just look at video aren't getting the whole picture.  I think a real lesson is one where it utilizes all the technologies we have available.  Only then can you accurately measure what's going on in the motion and have reliable data to show your student.

I disagree, and I know a number of good instructors who would, too. You don't need to measure exactly how much pressure a student is exerting during x part of their swing if you've seen enough measured swings to know what a person should look like when they're doing it correctly.

I've taken lessons from @iacas. I've never been on Swing Catalyst or Gears. Hell I don't even think we've even been on Flightscope during lessons.

Good instructors use videos. Dinosaurs don't. But it's absurd to say a lesson isn't good unless the instructor uses high tech equipment. Even the good instructors who own those tools aren't using them every lesson.

1 hour ago, mvmac said:

I guess I was referring more to learning from tech and evolving out of dinosaur thinking. You don't need to spend thousands of dollars to convey the correct ball flight laws, correct pressure shifts, correct macro body movements, etc. You can still utilize a great deal of the knowledge without having the tools.

I agree and that's what I think this thread is about, too.

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1 hour ago, mvmac said:

You don't need to spend thousands of dollars to convey the correct ball flight laws, correct pressure shifts, correct macro body movements, etc. You can still utilize a great deal of the knowledge without having the tools.

To convey it, sure.  But to measure it- no.  Feel and real are different most of the time.  You're guessing in my opinion.  Maybe you have video evidence for some of it, but it's hard to quantify that to a student without evidence.  Maybe your Joe Hacker, but to the discerning golfer, no.  If I'm paying you for lessons, I want every penny worth of it and I want measurable proof of what I'm working on and why.

14 minutes ago, billchao said:

how much pressure a student is exerting during x part of their swing

That's one part of the swing and sure you might can take an educated guess to produce a good looking motion.  Good luck giving a student accurate face to path, angle of attack, low point, strike location, etc. without a bit of tech.  Most pros these days are too concerned with positions and pretty pictures.  STRIKE IS KING.  Pretty pictures can help with that, but it's not one size fits all.

14 minutes ago, billchao said:

Good instructors use videos. Dinosaurs don't. But it's absurd to say a lesson isn't good unless the instructor uses high tech equipment. Even the good instructors who own those tools aren't using them every lesson.

I disagree.  In today's world and tech, you should have it.  If nothing else it's a receipt for your student- that is, your rationale for why the student should use their hard earned money on your expertise.  That's why good doctors, mechanics, teachers, etc use cutting edge technology and give appropriate mapping out of their plan/rationale/evidence.  You're almost advocating for the dinosaurs imo.

Edited by ncates00

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1 hour ago, Vinsk said:

Well I’ve also seen the mix of actually having TrackMan yet still not teach the modern (correct) mechanics.

That can happen, but I haven't seen that with instructors.  I've seen that with ME- owning tech myself with gc2, but I'm learning.  I may know a lot and learning more, but knowing how to apply that is where I see a coach who can also verify what I'm working on.  I don't have time to play around.

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43 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

To convey it, sure.  But to measure it- no.  Feel and real are different most of the time.  You're guessing in my opinion.  Maybe you have video evidence for some of it, but it's hard to quantify that to a student without evidence.  Maybe your Joe Hacker, but to the discerning golfer, no.  If I'm paying you for lessons, I want every penny worth of it and I want measurable proof of what I'm working on and why.

I gotcha, I'm all for verifying.

I'm just saying that not having thousands of dollars to spend on tech isn't an excuse for saying the start line of the ball is mostly determined by the direction of the path or that you have to roll your wrists to hit a draw or that you should have your butt out and chin up for good posture.

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