Drop Area or Stroke and Distance?

[Daslamminman]

One of our holes in our resort golf course has a wide water area on the left and trees and swamp on the right. Both sides have been designated as red marked penalty areas. Balls hit into either penalty area are allowed a drop area which is in front of all the tees and on the fairway. On the left, the water stretches the entire hole and it is 30 - 40 yards wide. Across the water are houses.

Should a golfer who hits his tee shot into the penalty area and further into the houses is he allowed the drop area or must he re-tee.

 

As a follow up if the answer to the above is re-tee, How certain must that Golf be that the ball did not completely cross the hazard as line of sight is sometimes blocked by shrubbery.

 

Another interesting point made by the head pro was what happens on that hole if a ball is sliced to the right across the red line and way up over the trees and swampy area. No one knows whether it came down on the golf course or on land not owned by the golf course.

[billchao]

2 hours ago, Daslamminman said:

Should a golfer who hits his tee shot into the penalty area and further into the houses is he allowed the drop area or must he re-tee.

That ball is out of bounds. Stroke and distance.

2 hours ago, Daslamminman said:

As a follow up if the answer to the above is re-tee, How certain must that Golf be that the ball did not completely cross the hazard as line of sight is sometimes blocked by shrubbery.

The burden of proof on relief from a penalty area is on being virtually certain the ball came to rest in the penalty area. So if you aren't sure if the ball came to rest in the penalty area or OB, stroke and distance.

2 hours ago, Daslamminman said:

Another interesting point made by the head pro was what happens on that hole if a ball is sliced to the right across the red line and way up over the trees and swampy area. No one knows whether it came down on the golf course or on land not owned by the golf course.

See above. Stroke and distance.

[iacas]

Bill, if OB isn’t marked, that’s not right. Think about left of Pebble Beach 18.

Drop areas generally shouldn’t be used for red penalty areas. That seems like an odd choice.

[billchao]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

Bill, if OB isn’t marked, that’s not right. Think about left of Pebble Beach 18.

Isn't left of Pebble Beach 18 just the ocean?

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, billchao said:

Isn't left of Pebble Beach 18 just the ocean?

Yes. It’s not OB.

[billchao]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes. It’s not OB.

Oh I get what you're saying. But the ocean is one gigantic penalty area so it doesn't have to be OB. In the OP's scenario, he's talking about balls that actually end up on someone else's property.

Plus, I just assumed houses would be marked or at least designated OB on a scorecard or something. I mean you could technically make the houses part of the penalty area, but I don't think that would go over too well with the homeowners if someone decided to play the ball out of their yard.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, billchao said:

Oh I get what you're saying. But the ocean is one gigantic penalty area so it doesn't have to be OB. In the OP's scenario, he's talking about balls that actually end up on someone else's property.

It has to be marked or designated.

Otherwise it’s in the penalty area.

[Daslamminman]

 We can’t play balls from the property of homeowners. So I imagine this is stroke and distance territory. However on the third point where the ball is hit out over the trees to the right and we have no idea where it landed.  The ball obviously crossed the line we really have no idea how much land or swamp belongs to the golf course or if there is somebody else’s property out there somewhere. I imagine that that ball would be considered penalty area and a drop is in order. There are a crazy amount of rounds at our golf courses. I am quite sure that the drop areas are there for pace of play. 

 This question came up on men’s league play. There is a lot of disagreement here. One of our group has actually written to the USGA. He’s received a reply that they are swamped with questions about the new rules changes and will get back to him when they can.

[iacas]

If the areas are not designated OB they’re not.

It’s that simple.

[Rulesman]

iacas has it of course but are the DZs compulsory or can players choose to take normal (lateral) relief from the penalty areas?

Is it physically possible to play from the nearside parts of the PAs? 

If PoP is a consideration, why not make them No Play Zones so penalty relief is compulsory?

 

[iacas]

@Daslamminman, what course and what hole? I'd like to look it up on Google Earth.

[Daslamminman]

Heritage Palms golf and country club. Fort Myers, Florida. It’s the Sabal Course hole number eight.

26°34'48"N 81°50'11"W · 13.3 ft

[iacas]

All Penalty Area, and if the stuff to the "right" of both holes 8 and 9 are marked red, they're red penalty areas, too.

P.S. I didn't get ALL of the penalty area, as that little bit between the tee/fairway would be red or yellow, but it's intended to give a rough, quick approximation.

[Chasing_Bogeys]

Just looking at this hole makes me break out in a cold sweat. How far is the carry from the whites to the fairway (over the water that separates the tee from the fairway)?

[Daslamminman]

From the blue tees, it’s about 200 yards to comfortably carry the fairway. It’s about 300 yards to the crook in your drawing. It is our number one hole. Most of us play from the whites and the carry for a straight shot is only about 160 yards. What is not apparent is that after you carry the water off the tee the fairway and rough on the right slopes to the right and will happily dump your ball into that water. You can see that small circle just after the carry near the cart path. That is the drop zone. From there the green is protected by those trees between it and the drop zone. Also, from the whites you have to hit the ball 200 yards to be able to see around those same trees to it to the green.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Chasing_Bogeys said:

Just looking at this hole makes me break out in a cold sweat. How far is the carry from the whites to the fairway (over the water that separates the tee from the fairway)?

FWIW my green line was just under 270 yards. The first segment, from the tee. I believe it was 268.xx yards.

[DrvFrShow]

8 looks like it's designed for my fade. 9 just looks like trouble.

[Daslamminman]

You a lefty? 7 might work for a righty’s fade. A par 5, it’s the second hardest hole on the side. 8 is a par 4 and the number 1 hole.