The Cheating Thread

[reidsou]

I recently joined a club where cheating is epidemic, even cultural. The most common example is not putting out. When I object, one response has been, "we have to do it because everyone else is doing it." I played with the club champion and watched him convince his friend to "give" him a 3 foot breaking putt which he then picked up.

Another example: I played in an individual stroke play tournament with two players who continually helped each other read the greens. On the 6th green I told them this was not allowed. In response they continued to help each other the rest of the round, but whispered so I wouldn't notice (I eventually did notice on hole #16).

There are many other examples.

Would like to do something about it, have called it out many times already - with mixed results. But I'm new and it's cultural. The club pros are part of the problem. I have played with them and watched them go along with or even initiate rules violations, including giving putts.

[ncates00]

8 hours ago, reidsou said:

I recently joined a club where cheating is epidemic, even cultural. The most common example is not putting out. When I object, one response has been, "we have to do it because everyone else is doing it." I played with the club champion and watched him convince his friend to "give" him a 3 foot breaking putt which he then picked up.

Another example: I played in an individual stroke play tournament with two players who continually helped each other read the greens. On the 6th green I told them this was not allowed. In response they continued to help each other the rest of the round, but whispered so I wouldn't notice (I eventually did notice on hole #16).

There are many other examples.

Would like to do something about it, have called it out many times already - with mixed results. But I'm new and it's cultural. The club pros are part of the problem. I have played with them and watched them go along with or even initiate rules violations, including giving putts.

If it's in tournament play or in a friendly match of any kind where scores are compared to others' scores, then you should certainly do something about it.  Otherwise, if you're just out playing with people and they take liberties of giving themselves putts or something, I would just deal with it and play my own game; it's not worth being concerned about.  The person may just want to enjoy getting out.  I'm not going to bother with it unless there is a comparison of scores.

For instance, I have a buddy who plays by the rules and we "compete" with each other even in friendly matches.  We have another buddy who takes great liberties with the rules, like with the gimmes and stuff.  I don't really care, unless at the end of the day he compares his score to mine.  He can't say something like "well, you only beat me by 3 today!" or something like that.  I will correct that real quick.

Edited November 9, 2019 by ncates00

[Double Mocha Man]

48 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

If it's in tournament play or in a friendly match of any kind where scores are compared to others' scores, then you should certainly do something about it.  Otherwise, if you're just out playing with people and they take liberties of giving themselves putts or something, I would just deal with it and play my own game; it's not worth being concerned about.  The person may just want to enjoy getting out.  I'm not going to bother with it unless there is a comparison of scores.

For instance, I have a buddy who plays by the rules and we "compete" with each other even in friendly matches.  We have another buddy who takes great liberties with the rules, like with the gimmes and stuff.  I don't really care, unless at the end of the day he compares his score to mine.  He can't say something like "well, you only beat me by 3 today!" or something like that.  I will correct that real quick.

Those "extra" casual golfers, if they are keeping a handicap, will be easy pickings when it comes to tournament play.  Their "ego"  handicaps will hurt them with respect to net.

[ghalfaire]

7 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Those "extra" casual golfers, if they are keeping a handicap, will be easy pickings when it comes to tournament play.  Their "ego"  handicaps will hurt them with respect to net.

Indeed it does (ego handicaps hurt in Tournaments).  When money is on the line, everyone knows the rules.  Some even know rules that don't exist, which is why I carry a rule book in my bag.  Don't hear me wrong, I am not a rules Nazi on casual rounds and don't, unless ask, tell people the rules.  However when I fork over a couple of hundred bucks or more to play in a tournament, I expect all to play by the rules and I'll speak up if you are not and I see it. 

[Double Mocha Man]

5 minutes ago, ghalfaire said:

Indeed it does (ego handicaps hurt in Tournaments).  When money is on the line, everyone knows the rules.  Some even know rules that don't exist, which is why I carry a rule book in my bag.  Don't hear me wrong, I am not a rules Nazi on casual rounds and don't, unless ask, tell people the rules.  However when I fork over a couple of hundred bucks or more to play in a tournament, I expect all to play by the rules and I'll speak up if you are not and I see it. 

The ol' protecting the field.

[ncates00]

37 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Those "extra" casual golfers, if they are keeping a handicap, will be easy pickings when it comes to tournament play.  Their "ego"  handicaps will hurt them with respect to net.

Very true.  Although, I never fuss about handicap; don't care about net score.  I always play gross score.

[reidsou]

1 hour ago, ncates00 said:

If it's in tournament play or in a friendly match of any kind where scores are compared to others' scores, then you should certainly do something about it. 

Thanks for the reply. This is all in competitions with money involved. For example, the player who picked up the 3 foot breaking putt ended up winning over $200 that day. 

Do you have any similar experience and how was it addressed? Other suggestions? 

[ncates00]

1 minute ago, reidsou said:

Thanks for the reply. This is all in competitions with money involved. For example, the player who picked up the 3 foot breaking putt ended up winning over $200 that day. 

Do you have any similar experience and how was it addressed? Other suggestions? 

I'm probably the wrong person to ask.  haha.  I have no problem being a jerk to someone who does things like that.

[reidsou]

4 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

I'm probably the wrong person to ask.  haha.  I have no problem being a jerk to someone who does things like that.

I tried being a jerk already. It's cultural, so this has backfired. 

[ncates00]

7 minutes ago, reidsou said:

Thanks for the reply. This is all in competitions with money involved. For example, the player who picked up the 3 foot breaking putt ended up winning over $200 that day. 

Do you have any similar experience and how was it addressed? Other suggestions? 

Talk with the head pro (not the club pros), director of golf, tournament director, or other manager.

[Lihu]

On 6/28/2019 at 12:37 PM, Double Mocha Man said:

Don't be naive... it wasn't an "accident".

“Intent”- difficult to prove.

On 6/28/2019 at 1:07 PM, lastings said:

A lot of 12s can't break 90 most of the time, anyways. 

Half the time, come on, be nice to us

[Patch]

Just my own opinion, as I have no "statistics" to back it up, but I think cheating in golf is more prevalent than poor pace of play.

I joined a "national" golf league years ago, and cheating was rampant. I complained, named names, gave a thorough discription of the dirty deeds I saw..

Most of the cheating I saw was of the "foot wedge" variety.  That, and some "creative" scoring. 

League officials investigated, and told me I was mistaken. I cancelled my membership, and moved on. To this day, decades later, I still get their emailed news letter. 

Once at the local pga stop, I saw a golfer address his ball. As he pushed the grass down behind the ball with his club, the ball rolled several feet further down a down slope, giving the golfer a cleaner, fairway lie.. As the golfer's caddy walked by me, I asked if that counted as a stroke. The caddy told me "no, everyone does it out here". It was of little help to the pga golfer, as he missed the cut. 

 

[ncates00]

41 minutes ago, Lihu said:

“Intent”- difficult to prove.

Intent can be shown by the circumstances.

[Mr22putt]

2 hours ago, ncates00 said:

Talk with the head pro (not the club pros), director of golf, tournament director, or other manager.

There's nothing the above can do....they are all employees/servants at the club.....nothing more.

As mentioned...it's a cultural thing....if the members want to be POSER's..... then reidsu will just have to avoid play with money, etc.....it's a shame but what it is.

reidsu has already tried to fight it without success. 

[Lihu]

32 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Intent can be shown by the circumstances.

I suppose if his initials are on both balls 😂

I would still give him a 2 on that hole though. Serves him right next tournament when he has to play the A flight 😂😂😂

[leftybutnotPM]

1 hour ago, Patch said:

Once at the local pga stop, I saw a golfer address his ball. As he pushed the grass down behind the ball with his club, the ball rolled several feet further down a down slope, giving the golfer a cleaner, fairway lie.. As the golfer's caddy walked by me, I asked if that counted as a stroke. The caddy told me "no, everyone does it out here". It was of little help to the pga golfer, as he missed the cut. 

 

BS.

Name "the golfer". Which tournament?

Why say "the local pga stop" or "the golfer""?

If "everybody did it"  or if it happened once every 6 months it'd be noticed by dozens of people who would do something about it.

 

[reidsou]

3 hours ago, Mr22putt said:

There's nothing the above can do....they are all employees/servants at the club.....nothing more.

As mentioned...it's a cultural thing....if the members want to be POSER's..... then reidsu will just have to avoid play with money, etc.....it's a shame but what it is.

reidsu has already tried to fight it without success. 

I haven't given up. Just need some strategy ideas to deal with rampant cheating. There are other members who don't like it either. I think the culture comes from the top, not sure. 

It's interesting that this is a private club. I also belong to a club at a public golf course where the players are much more honest. 

[Double Mocha Man]

11 minutes ago, reidsou said:

I haven't given up. Just need some strategy ideas to deal with rampant cheating. There are other members who don't like it either. I think the culture comes from the top, not sure. 

It's interesting that this is a private club. I also belong to a club at a public golf course where the players are much more honest. 

I admire your honesty and persistence.  But I think you're beating a dead horse and you will only lose friends, albeit dishonest friends.  Why don't you invite them to a little game of poker in the grill room and then openly cheat and see what they say.  Or, if you have their email address send a link to them of this thread.  Maybe they'll see themselves.