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Black Sail

Distance vs. Accuracy

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This post is for my mid to high handicap friends looking for simple fixes without the need the completely overhaul their swing.

Sooo… let's get back to the whole distance debate in golf. If you're a person looking to drop shots off your scores, then stop focusing on how far you CAN hit the ball and constantly trying to hit it as far as possible. Instead, find out exactly how far you need to hit the ball from where you're standing and choose the appropriate club based on your knowledge of how far you hit each club in your bag.

For example, if you're 150 yards away from the green then you should be aiming to the safest part of the green possible. It may not always be the center of the green, just the largest part that gives you room for error. That way if you miss long, short, left, or right by 5 or 8 yards, even 10 yards in some cases, you're still going to hit the green. Golf is not all about how far you hit the ball. It's about how often you hit the ball the distance you need to.

Tiger Woods made it very clear with this quote. “The last thing I need is for my ball to go farther. I need to go my number.”

Furthermore, if you look at the list of the Top 10 players in the Official World Golf Rankings right now, only 3 of them will pop up in the top of the Driving Distance Leaders category.

Hitting it long is great and Rory, DJ and Brooks have made it an art form, but they also have the rest of their game in place to back it up.

If you want to play better you have to know your numbers. Start building your practice routine around understanding how far each of your clubs travel when you use your “stock” swing. If you want to be a professional long driver, then go ahead and hit the gym, buy a driver with a giant clubhead and super long shaft, and jump up on your tippy toes while swinging as hard as you can. But, if that's not your cup of tea, focus on building a swing that is repeatable, controllable, and will perform under pressure.

Once you can do that, you can start counting your skins money at the 19th hole instead of trying to figure out how you are going to explain to your spouse that date night just turned into a trip to McDonalds.

Distance vs. Accuracy.png

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10 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

Furthermore, if you look at the list of the Top 10 players in the Official World Golf Rankings right now, only 3 of them will pop up in the top of the Driving Distance Leaders category.

What do you mean only 3?  I'd say having 3 in both Top 10's would mean it's a very important skill.  Heck look at GIR rankings for 2019, another very important skill, you get only JT in both.

Having a consistent distance is good and all, but how many mid to high handicaps would have a consistent enough swing / contact to be really accurate on their distance?  They are looking, I'd think +/-10yds or more on most clubs.  Definitely stick to your average's and play with smart course management, like you said. 

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Well, since I no lnger have the distance, full swing accuracy works well for me. After that, my short game usually gains me the stokes I lost due to having less distance. 

As for knowing my club distances, I have good grasp of what my carry yardages are, from various lies, which is the only distance number I really care about. I will factor in the roll part based on the  ever changing course conditions. 

The chart above is not representative to most of the golfers I play with. 

Edited by Patch

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3 minutes ago, phillyk said:

What do you mean only 3?  I'd say having 3 in both Top 10's would mean it's a very important skill.  Heck look at GIR rankings for 2019, another very important skill, you get only JT in both.

Having a consistent distance is good and all, but how many mid to high handicaps would have a consistent enough swing / contact to be really accurate on their distance?  They are looking, I'd think +/-10yds or more on most clubs.  Definitely stick to your average's and play with smart course management, like you said. 

Great reply..thank you. I mean exactly that, only 3. That means that 7 other guys get it done without being the longest. It IS an important skill, just not the MOST important. Not many mid-to-high handicappers can hit it a consistent distance which is the point of the article. I am encouraging them to focus on developing that consistency instead of pouring hours of practice into just getting straight and long. 

Also, I love that you brought up JT for distance and GIR. THAT is why I want our higher handicap players to focus more on hitting greens and lag putting than I do on driving the ball. Once they can do that, it would be prudent to focus more on driving distance. I just want players to focus on how to score in golf, then learn how to hit the long ball. 

Bottom line is there is no right or wrong answer. It just depends on what your goals in golf are. If you like hitting it long then focus on that. If you want to score better then focus on the things you can do to accomplish that goal. I just wrote this because a majority of my students want to score better more than they want to hit it longer. 

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2 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

Great reply..thank you. I mean exactly that, only 3. That means that 7 other guys get it done without being the longest. It IS an important skill, just not the MOST important. Not many mid-to-high handicappers can hit it a consistent distance which is the point of the article. I am encouraging them to focus on developing that consistency instead of pouring hours of practice into just getting straight and long. 

Also, I love that you brought up JT for distance and GIR. THAT is why I want our higher handicap players to focus more on hitting greens and lag putting than I do on driving the ball. Once they can do that, it would be prudent to focus more on driving distance. I just want players to focus on how to score in golf, then learn how to hit the long ball. 

Bottom line is there is no right or wrong answer. It just depends on what your goals in golf are. If you like hitting it long then focus on that. If you want to score better then focus on the things you can do to accomplish that goal. I just wrote this because a majority of my students want to score better more than they want to hit it longer. 

I don't know about your students, but when I hit my tee shots longer, I also hit more greens, and hit it closer.  That's a function of having shorter shots to the greens.  So improving driving is a significant tool in shooting lower scores.  I've also found that improving my full swing helps my driver distance, and helps my distance and direction accuracy with every club in the bag.  I don't think of it as focusing on irons vs. focusing on driving it long, I think of it as improving my swing.  

Now if you're suggesting that too many players focus only on increasing their driver distance, when they're better off working on the swing in general, you could be right.  

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25 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

Sooo… let's get back to the whole distance debate in golf. 

What is there to debate? Hitting it further than someone else off the tee will give you an advantage.

The closer you are to the hole off the tee the closer your next shot will be to the hole (on average).

Those are facts.

28 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

If you're a person looking to drop shots off your scores, then stop focusing on how far you CAN hit the ball and constantly trying to hit it as far as possible. Instead, find out exactly how far you need to hit the ball from where you're standing and choose the appropriate club based on your knowledge of how far you hit each club in your bag.

 

Blanket advice like that typically doesn't work very well. What about the 10 handicap that already has a pretty good idea about how far each club goes, but their drives top out at 220 yds? They would benefit more from adding distance to their game. It's pretty easy and doesnt take that much work/effort to learn how far each club goes, it's much tougher to increase clubhead speed and distance.

31 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

Furthermore, if you look at the list of the Top 10 players in the Official World Golf Rankings right now, only 3 of them will pop up in the top of the Driving Distance Leaders category.

If you look at the top 5 players in the OWGR, 3 out of those 5 were in the top 5 of strokes gained off the tee last season. Stats can be made to fit pretty much any narrative depending on how you frame it.

 

5 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

It IS an important skill, just not the MOST important. Not many mid-to-high handicappers can hit it a consistent distance which is the point of the article. 

Since you think distance isnt the most important skill, I'm curious what you think is the most important skill and why you think that skill is the most important? (Along with facts to support your position)

6 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

Not many mid-to-high handicappers can hit it a consistent distance which is the point of the article. I am encouraging them to focus on developing that consistency instead of pouring hours of practice into just getting straight and long. 

You act like hitting it a consistent distance and hitting it straight and long are two mutually exclusive things that can't be worked on at the same time. Improving ones' golf swing as a whole will likely result in their distances being more consistent, with a tighter dispersion (straighter) and more solid contact and increased clubhead speed through better sequencing which leads to hitting it further. 

 

3 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

If you want to score better then focus on the things you can do to accomplish that goal.

Like hitting it longer and straighter? 

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20 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

why I want our higher handicap players to focus more on hitting greens and lag putting than I do on driving the ball.

Driving the ball as long as possible, while keeping it in play, does just that.  Tiger won his green jackets largely in part because he was hitting wedges into par 5's.  DiMarco marveled at how Tiger had wedges and he had long irons into greens.  DiMarco had to play the best of his life to even come close to Tiger's C game.  

Length is preferred over accuracy, with driver; just go look at strokes gained off the tee, precisely because of what it does for hitting greens and having a closer proximity to the hole.  All you need with driver, unless it's a US Open setup course, is to hit driver as far as you can, resulting in a clear shot at the green afterwards.  That's it.  From there, you'll have shorter clubs in.  It's better to have a wedge or 9i in out of the rough, with a clear shot, than it is to hit a 7i or more from the fairway.

When's the last time you saw a PGA tour player with under 160 ball speed win?  I'll wait.  No, the best players hit the ball long and straight, given how far they hit it.  A longer shot can off line more than a shorter shot.

Just look at Molinari at the British Open when Tiger was chasing.  Tiger, probably the best iron player in the world, couldn't keep up with Molinari.  Besides Molinari's grit, Tiger couldn't keep up because he hit irons off most tees, giving yards up to Molinari (the slightly shorter hitter) and his driver.  Tiger had long irons into greens that Molinari had shorter clubs; and, Tiger is the best iron player ever!  Again, driver is a weapon that sets up the rest of the game, if you hit it long and in play.  

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20 minutes ago, klineka said:

What is there to debate? Hitting it further than someone else off the tee will give you an advantage.

The closer you are to the hole off the tee the closer your next shot will be to the hole (on average).

Those are facts.

Blanket advice like that typically doesn't work very well. What about the 10 handicap that already has a pretty good idea about how far each club goes, but their drives top out at 220 yds? They would benefit more from adding distance to their game. It's pretty easy and doesnt take that much work/effort to learn how far each club goes, it's much tougher to increase clubhead speed and distance.

If you look at the top 5 players in the OWGR, 3 out of those 5 were in the top 5 of strokes gained off the tee last season. Stats can be made to fit pretty much any narrative depending on how you frame it.

 

Since you think distance isnt the most important skill, I'm curious what you think is the most important skill and why you think that skill is the most important? (Along with facts to support your position)

You act like hitting it a consistent distance and hitting it straight and long are two mutually exclusive things that can't be worked on at the same time. Improving ones' golf swing as a whole will likely result in their distances being more consistent, with a tighter dispersion (straighter) and more solid contact and increased clubhead speed through better sequencing which leads to hitting it further. 

 

Like hitting it longer and straighter? 

What is there to debate? Hitting it further than someone else off the tee will give you an advantage.

- - Anything is debatable. If you hit it further than I do, but can't control your 9-iron, I will beat you. Fact.

Blanket advice like that typically doesn't work very well. What about the 10 handicap that already has a pretty good idea about how far each club goes, but their drives top out at 220 yds? They would benefit more from adding distance to their game. It's pretty easy and doesnt take that much work/effort to learn how far each club goes, it's much tougher to increase clubhead speed and distance.

 - - Had you read the entire article you would see that I covered this. Once you know how far your clubs go, it is prudent to work on power and distance. Just start with the fundamentals first is all I'm saying. 

If you look at the top 5 players in the OWGR, 3 out of those 5 were in the top 5 of strokes gained off the tee last season. Stats can be made to fit pretty much any narrative depending on how you frame it.

- - So can facts be made to say what you want them to. 3 of 5 is a solid number, but look at their other statistical categories and you will see that they have a better OVERALL game than their peers. It is not ONLY distance that makes them great.

Since you think distance isnt the most important skill, I'm curious what you think is the most important skill and why you think that skill is the most important? (Along with facts to support your position)

 - - The stats from the 2018-2019 season will support the fact that shots from 100 yds and closer are the difference in good versus great. It is MY OPINION that it is the most important skill. Nothing more, nothing less. Just my opinion. 

You act like hitting it a consistent distance and hitting it straight and long are two mutually exclusive things that can't be worked on at the same time. Improving ones' golf swing as a whole will likely result in their distances being more consistent, with a tighter dispersion (straighter) and more solid contact and increased clubhead speed through better sequencing which leads to hitting it further. 

 - I wholeheartedly agree, Sir. That is exactly the point of the article. Work on your "stock" swing and everything else will fall into place over time. Most golfers have a completely different driver swing than they have for their irons. They are a little different, yes, but most players in the 10-20 handicap range give too much separation there. Keep it simple until they develop that ability, then adjust as skills grow. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Driving the ball as long as possible, while keeping it in play, does just that.  Tiger won his green jackets largely in part because he was hitting wedges into par 5's.  DiMarco marveled at how Tiger had wedges and he had long irons into greens.  DiMarco had to play the best of his life to even come close to Tiger's C game.  

Length is preferred over accuracy, with driver; just go look at strokes gained off the tee, precisely because of what it does for hitting greens and having a closer proximity to the hole.  All you need with driver, unless it's a US Open setup course, is to hit driver as far as you can, resulting in a clear shot at the green afterwards.  That's it.  From there, you'll have shorter clubs in.  It's better to have a wedge or 9i in out of the rough, with a clear shot, than it is to hit a 7i or more from the fairway.

When's the last time you saw a PGA tour player with under 160 ball speed win?  I'll wait.  No, the best players hit the ball long and straight, given how far they hit it.  A longer shot can off line more than a shorter shot.

Just look at Molinari at the British Open when Tiger was chasing.  Tiger, probably the best iron player in the world, couldn't keep up with Molinari.  Besides Molinari's grit, Tiger couldn't keep up because he hit irons off most tees, giving yards up to Molinari (the slightly shorter hitter) and his driver.  Tiger had long irons into greens that Molinari had shorter clubs; and, Tiger is the best iron player ever!  Again, driver is a weapon that sets up the rest of the game, if you hit it long and in play.  

I agree with you on all counts and your facts are spot on. However, the players I am talking to are not on tour and likely never will be. I am simply talking to the player that is frustrated by not scoring better. Only focusing on driving will not improve a players ability to get the ball in the hole. I only used stats from the tour because I didn't have that data for the weekend golfer. 

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6 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

However, the players I am talking to are not on tour and likely never will be.

Doesn't matter.  My reasoning still applies, even more so with an amateur because he/she hits it shorter anyway.  Distance helps all.  A person can't hit it far enough.

 

7 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

Only focusing on driving will not improve a players ability to get the ball in the hole.

Did you read what I said?  I never said that only focusing on driving would do that.  Driving is a very important piece of the game, but no one has ever said it is the only.  That would be long drive competitions.  Nonetheless, distance is the most important piece of driving in the standard golf context for the reasons I've already said.

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6 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Doesn't matter.  My reasoning still applies, even more so with an amateur because he/she hits it shorter anyway.  Distance helps all.  A person can't hit it far enough.

 

Did you read what I said?  I never said that only focusing on driving would do that.  Driving is a very important piece of the game, but no one has ever said it is the only.  That would be long drive competitions.  Nonetheless, distance is the most important piece of driving in the standard golf context for the reasons I've already said.

Easy, Tiger.....I DID read what you said. Again, this is a debate, not an argument. My opinions on the distance debate are supportable with statistics. So are yours. I appreciate your replies, Sir.

The way you view driving the golf ball is spot on. However, weekend golfers have a habit of aiming at flags and not know how far their approach shots will fly. I really want to help players figure those numbers out (it doesn't take too much effort) and THEN we can start working the power and distance problem. I am simply talking about a measured approach to improvement. 

1 hour ago, Patch said:

Well, since I no lnger have the distance, full swing accuracy works well for me. After that, my short game usually gains me the stokes I lost due to having less distance. 

As for knowing my club distances, I have good grasp of what my carry yardages are, from various lies, which is the only distance number I really care about. I will factor in the roll part based on the  ever changing course conditions. 

The chart above is not representative to most of the golfers I play with. 

Agreed, Sir. I couldn't find reliable data for the weekend golfer so i went with tour stats. 

Edited by Black Sail

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Just now, Black Sail said:

Easy, Tiger.....I DID read what you said. Again, this is a debate, not an argument. My opinions on the distance debate are supportable with statistics. So are yours. I appreciate your replies, Sir.

No argument here, man.  We're good.  

One other thing that you might have glossed over is the fact that distance lengthens your career.  Tiger is relevant as a 43 year-old with a bad back because he can still hit the ball at a good clip.  The shorter hitters are being pushed out of contention, and soon, will be gone from the Tour altogether eventually.  Why else do you see new members of the Champion's Tour tear it up when they first arrive?  Length.

Get them hitting the ball better and they will score better.  I'll take a long ball hitter over an "accurate" short knocker any day to start with as a raw talent.  The long hitter can get what the shorter guy has, but the opposite is not always true.  Hitting the ball better results in both distance and accuracy.  If you have speed, that means you are swinging efficiently.  Speed is hard to come by.  A person can always learn to straighten it out with today's launch monitors and video and etc.  I would teach people to hit the ball out of the middle of the face and hit it as far as possible.  You can work on face to path and all that later.  Better to have a fluid, powerful athletic move than a short-hitting mechanical one.

I'd very much like to see any statistics you may have to support your claim, but I'm not very optimistic.  I will concede that distance is more important with driver than the irons, as the irons are more about hitting your carry number and flight windows, but that's about as far as I'll go.  Countless studies have been done on the subject, see e.g., "Lowest Score Wins," Mark Broadie's work, PGA Tour stats, and many more.  

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58 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't know about your students, but when I hit my tee shots longer, I also hit more greens, and hit it closer.  That's a function of having shorter shots to the greens.  So improving driving is a significant tool in shooting lower scores.  I've also found that improving my full swing helps my driver distance, and helps my distance and direction accuracy with every club in the bag.  I don't think of it as focusing on irons vs. focusing on driving it long, I think of it as improving my swing.  

Now if you're suggesting that too many players focus only on increasing their driver distance, when they're better off working on the swing in general, you could be right.  

@DaveP043 I was hoping you would jump on this one. You are right, however, you carry an index of 4. A 14 handicap needs to look at the bigger picture of "how do I get on the green and 2-putt for par" before "I need to swing out of my shoes and crush this thing as far as I can, but I'm going to get mad if it goes in the woods or the water."

The last sentence you wrote was the inspiration for the article. Fundamentals first, then power and distance. Thank you, Sir.

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15 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

The way you view driving the golf ball is spot on. However, weekend golfers have a habit of aiming at flags and not know how far their approach shots will fly. I really want to help players figure those numbers out (it doesn't take too much effort) and THEN we can start working the power and distance problem. I am simply talking about a measured approach to improvement. 

Sure, but you're conflating the issue here.  Driving and iron play are distinct parts of the game, and no one says you have to have one over the other.  Players can get on a good launch monitor and do a gap test on their irons to come up with a good reasonable carry distance for every club in the bag.

You're working the wrong way, in my opinion, in regards to player development.  It's much better to take a kid who is raw and get them flushing the daylight out of the ball and then work on accuracy.  Developing those fast twitch muscles and letting them become athletic early on is so important.  Getting kids to dink it down the fairway destroys that.  You can always reign in the distance.  Why else do pros gear down to a 2i off the tee sometimes?

A Ferrari can go 20 mph, but a Prius cannot go 200 mph...

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4 minutes ago, ncates00 said:

Sure, but you're conflating the issue here.  Driving and iron play are distinct parts of the game, and no one says you have to have one over the other.  Players can get on a good launch monitor and do a gap test on their irons to come up with a good reasonable carry distance for every club in the bag.

You're working the wrong way, in my opinion, in regards to player development.  It's much better to take a kid who is raw and get them flushing the daylight out of the ball and then work on accuracy.  Developing those fast twitch muscles and letting them become athletic early on is so important.  Getting kids to dink it down the fairway destroys that.  You can always reign in the distance.  Why else do pros gear down to a 2i off the tee sometimes?

A Ferrari can go 20 mph, but a Prius cannot go 200 mph...

I wish it worked that way, but not every player that comes to me is young and full of power. I have to work with what I have. A lot of my players are older, or have some physical limitation. However, you are correct in how the ideal player would be developed. Again, it's just not always my choice. 

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6 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

@DaveP043 I was hoping you would jump on this one. You are right, however, you carry an index of 4. A 14 handicap needs to look at the bigger picture of "how do I get on the green and 2-putt for par" before "I need to swing out of my shoes and crush this thing as far as I can, but I'm going to get mad if it goes in the woods or the water."

The last sentence you wrote was the inspiration for the article. Fundamentals first, then power and distance. Thank you, Sir.

I very seldom try to speak for others, but I don't think you'll find many (any?) people on this forum who would ever recommend an approach like the bold one.  A 14-handicapper should generally be doing the same thing I'm trying to do, and that's to improve his golf swing.  If he only cares about distance with the driver, he probably will limit himself.  If he only cares about accuracy with his irons, he'll also limit himself.  But improving the golf swing SHOULD improve both distance and accuracy.  It shouldn't have to be an either/or proposition.  Part of that 14-handicapper achieving the goal you suggest, getting on the green, is to hit the tee shot long and in play, making the second shot easier to get on the green, easier to get close to the hole.  So its not what the thread title suggests, distance as opposed to accuracy, its a combination, distance with accuracy.

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It’s really easy to have a discussion when you just make up whatever straw man you want.

Distance is a form of accuracy too.

I mean, distance AND accuracy is important. And distance is often MORE important.

Have you seen that @Black Sail?

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51 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

The stats from the 2018-2019 season will support the fact that shots from 100 yds and closer are the difference in good versus great. It is MY OPINION that it is the most important skill. Nothing more, nothing less. Just my opinion. 

What specific stats? Nobody in the top 10 in strokes gained putting in 2019 is currently in the top 10 in the world, and nobody in the top 10 in strokes gained around the green in 2019 is currently in the top 10 in the world, yet 3 of the top 5 strokes gained off the tee are in the top 5 in the world.

I asked what you thought the most important shots in golf are, not what separates the good versus great players. 

If you think that shots from 100 yds and closer are the most important skill for mid to high handicap players too then you are straight up wrong and there have been multiple books and studies done that prove you are wrong. 

See my comment here with some sources:

 

51 minutes ago, Black Sail said:

I am simply talking to the player that is frustrated by not scoring better. Only focusing on driving will not improve a players ability to get the ball in the hole.

Nobody is saying to only focus on driving/driving distance, but most of us are saying driving distance matters a whole heck of a lot more than you are giving it credit for.

Edited by klineka

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1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

I very seldom try to speak for others, but I don't think you'll find many (any?) people on this forum who would ever recommend an approach like the bold one.  A 14-handicapper should generally be doing the same thing I'm trying to do, and that's to improve his golf swing.  If he only cares about distance with the driver, he probably will limit himself.  If he only cares about accuracy with his irons, he'll also limit himself.  But improving the golf swing SHOULD improve both distance and accuracy.  It shouldn't have to be an either/or proposition.  Part of that 14-handicapper achieving the goal you suggest, getting on the green, is to hit the tee shot long and in play, making the second shot easier to get on the green, easier to get close to the hole.  So its not what the thread title suggests, distance as opposed to accuracy, its a combination, distance with accuracy.

@DaveP043 Your critical thought has saved the day. I was sitting in a professional development class years ago and before class started there was a white board in the from of the room that said "Institution VS Individual". As it was a course based on the Sokratic Method of instruction, a fiery debate ensued and almost everyone took sides. I kept quiet for the entire class and waited. At the end when the dust began to settle and things got quiet, I asked a single question to my class mates. "What if the Institution developed Individuals for the greater good and not only for the Institution?"

That is what we are dealing with here. You are correct in that distance and accuracy can go hand-in-hand and I support developing players to do both. What I REALLY wanted to see is how many players would be willing to choose one over the other....

Again, thank you for your wise perspective. This gets better by the minute.

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