Two Players Penalized at LPGA Q-Series for Not Knowing Rule

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, gbogey said:

I'm just questioning why would anyone ask?  I used to play with the same three guys every week in NJ.  I have no clue as to their club distances compared to mine except to know that I was longer than two and shorter (at least off the tee although our irons may have been the same) than one.

That’s you.

[rehmwa]

I was talking about how I think one should address it when they see a penalty (shoulds and best case type of approach in terms of relating to your playing partners).  But I thought this thread was in the general topics, not the Rules of Golf forum explicitly.  My bad, I thought about that the other day and just now came to check...

We try to keep the threads in this specific forum about the rules directly, rather than hypotheticals or how we think things should be handled.

As such, and noted already, I have no issues as to the rules compliance.  Kim observed, notified per the rules.  the other two took their penalties directly once notified/updated.  Everyone did what's required.

 

all the rest is digression - including tweets, or opinions.  My bad.  I'll step out unless it's moved to another forum for that kind of thing.  Good discussions all around regardless

[leftybutnotPM]

On 11/5/2019 at 3:31 AM, gbogey said:

I always find this a stupid situation, especially at the amateur level.  If I tell you I hit a 7i, what does that tell you?  I may be one or two clubs longer or shorter than you, and my irons are 5 years old so if yours are newer or much older there could be a club difference in our sets.  That says nothing about whether I tried to hit a club the full distance.  I know that some of this doesn't apply to the pros, but a lot of it does so why a caddie would ask that even not knowing the rules is a mystery to me.

And you can't hit the ball 300 meters, so why would Tiger Woods worry about a bunker that's 295 from the tee.

I can't carry 250 over water so why would Koepka even try?

Get the connection? Neither can I.

I'm surprised you didn't say "I wouldn't care if someone asked me. My buddies and I do it all the time." which is what usually happens in threads like this.

A rule was broken and there are consequences. And, typically, the whistleblower takes the heat.

Edited November 7, 2019 by leftybutnotPM

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

all the rest is digression - including tweets, or opinions.  My bad.  I'll step out unless it's moved to another forum for that kind of thing.

Not accurate. This forum is for discussing the Rules. Discussing fallout is within the boundaries.

[rehmwa]

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not accurate. This forum is for discussing the Rules. Discussing fallout is within the boundaries.

It is when i go off on the tangents - (I'll sit back and learn)  thanks

[iacas]

1 minute ago, rehmwa said:

It is when i go off on the tangents - (I'll sit back and learn)  thanks

Again, nothing posted so far is tangential. The topic could belong in both Tour Talk AND the Rules of Golf sub-forums, but it would be dumb to have two topics in two separate sub-forums.

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Also, holy hell is this bad writing.

[Mr22putt]

This whole scenario can be summed up as follows:

1) Kendall Dye as a 10+ touring pro is a FOOL if she didn't know this common breach...or lying and trying brush off and get away with her ignorance.

2) Drama Queen, Christina Kim...is a FOOL for making a cryptic Tweet about this.....she's also in the past had Twitter fights with Lincicome and Caroline Masson....C. Kim is an attention seeking goof.

[DaveP043]

A new article from Golfweek:

Rules of Golf: Kendall Dye broke the rules, but she’s hardly alone

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Kendall Dye says that in her decade-long professional career, she has seen fingers flashed at players, caddies and media thousands of times. The assertion, made on Twitter, was meant to help explai…

suggests that flashing club numbers to other caddies is pretty common.  Not a particularly good look for the Tour professionals, but not inconsistent with the comments around the backstopping issues early in the year.  

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

A new article from Golfweek:

Rules of Golf: Kendall Dye broke the rules, but she’s hardly alone

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Kendall Dye says that in her decade-long professional career, she has seen fingers flashed at players, caddies and media thousands of times. The assertion, made on Twitter, was meant to help explai…

suggests that flashing club numbers to other caddies is pretty common.  Not a particularly good look for the Tour professionals, but not inconsistent with the comments around the backstopping issues early in the year.  

I don't think that is accurate. I think that caddies will flash numbers to on-course commentators and stuff.

If it's accurate, and it's done all the time… then that's a much, much bigger problem than backstopping ever was.

[Bonvivant]

On 11/4/2019 at 1:39 PM, mcanadiens said:

I'd previously been of the belief that you are to call out a rules violation as soon as you see one.

You get the penalties sorted at that moment and everyone knows where they stand and can make appropriate decisions going forward.

It never occurred to me that waiting until the end of the round was supposed to be an option.

 

This is how I would play in a tournament I think, but the other side of the coin is something in the pool world that we call "sharking". Basically getting into the other players head, especially when they are about to take a shot. When you call a good pool player a "shark", you may think that they are really good, but in their head they cringe because being a "shark" isn't a good thing in the pool world (although it is quite common).

After reading this, I think that Kim did the right thing, especially if she wasn't 100% sure of the rule in question. Ask an official, and let them take care of it. It is quite crappy that the caddie did this to their player, but at Q-school level, I am sure that most of the caddies don't know 100% of the rule book, even if they should or think they do. Hell, your caddie may be a family member at that level if you are new to it or don't have the cash to hire a caddie.

[Bonvivant]

On 11/7/2019 at 12:36 PM, gbogey said:

I'm sorry but I don't think you were getting my point at all - I'm not saying it isn't a penalty and I'm not disagreeing with the rule - the rule is clear and I know the rule - it was a penalty.  I'm just questioning why would anyone ask?  I used to play with the same three guys every week in NJ.  I have no clue as to their club distances compared to mine except to know that I was longer than two and shorter (at least off the tee although our irons may have been the same) than one.  I have not idea if my clubs were equivalent to theirs - at least one had a set of irons that was much older than mine.  I have occasionally had (as I'm sure most people have) someone ask "what did I hit" during a casual round.  I usually respond so as not to seem rude but inside I'm laughing - what does that tell you?  I met you on the first tee and now you want to select a club based upon a shot I just hit?  I honestly don't think my response is going to help you.

Again with a pro, different situation and knowledge applies but in some ways the point is the same.

I often ask someone what they hit out of curiosity, not because it helps me in any way. Especially when I know someone's game and they make a particularly good or bad club choice, it is just interesting to me. This is during casual play, of course, but maybe their motives aren't to gain an advantage. Dare I say, some guys might even club down from the same distance to prove that they are more macho (I have seen this before).

For pros, this is way more telling, because their distances are fairly similar, and even if they are different, I would assume that an attentive player could discern the difference and adjust accordingly after seeing a few shots. When you have wind+elevation to deal with, this could be extremely valuable information after you see them play their shot, and is certainly cheating.

[RemyM]

Watching the final round of the CME Group championship.  S.Y. Kim was getting ready to hit her second shot on the par 4 11th, she has 146 and as her caddy walks away he clearly flashes three fingers to the to side to tell the TV guy she is hitting 8 iron.  The other two players in the group balls are visible ahead of her's waiting to be played.  Now nobody asked what she hit but the information is there for the other players.

Edited November 24, 2019 by RemyM

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, RemyM said:

Watching the final round of the CME Group championship.  S.Y. Kim was getting ready to hit her second shot on the par 4 11th, she has 146 and as her caddy walks away he clearly flashes three fingers to the to side to tell the TV guy she is hitting 8 iron.  The other two players in the group balls are visible ahead of her's waiting to be played.  Now nobody asked what she hit but the information is there for the other players.

Different situation.

Which I believe you know.

[Double Mocha Man]

59 minutes ago, iacas said:

Different situation.

Which I believe you know.

Like I said before.  If I'm that caddie I'm flashing 2 clubs less... so five fingers.

[RemyM]

14 hours ago, iacas said:

Different situation.

Which I believe you know.

Of course, but this is where someone gets their logic that they see it all the time.  Perhaps just like caddies can't line up players perhaps they shouldn't be giving out unsolicited advice.

13 hours ago, Double Mocha Man said:

Like I said before.  If I'm that caddie I'm flashing 2 clubs less... so five fingers.

Didn't help Nelly Korda, she hit 9, came out of the shot and it came up short then rolled into the penalty area.

Edited November 25, 2019 by RemyM

[iacas]

2 hours ago, RemyM said:

Of course, but this is where someone gets their logic that they see it all the time.  Perhaps just like caddies can't line up players perhaps they shouldn't be giving out unsolicited advice.

Surreptitiously slashing fingers to an on-course reporter is not "giving out unsolicited advice."

[RemyM]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

Surreptitiously slashing fingers to an on-course reporter is not "giving out unsolicited advice."

What if one of her fellow competitors or their caddies is standing next to the on-course reporter?  Who is to say the signal was't made to be advice to them.  Perhaps a subtle head nod from someone is observed before the fingers are flashed.  Rules need to be enforced consistently.

[iacas]

18 minutes ago, RemyM said:

What if one of her fellow competitors or their caddies is standing next to the on-course reporter?  Who is to say the signal was't made to be advice to them.  Perhaps a subtle head nod from someone is observed before the fingers are flashed.  Rules need to be enforced consistently.

They have been. There was nobody to signal to at Q-School, and they were on the box of a par three where all players were hitting from the same place, and the players/caddies both asked for and gave advice.

The situations are not the same.

Furthermore, I'd rather see all rules enforced, but you can get into trouble with the "consistently" part, because if rules have not been enforced, then "consistency" warrants continuing not to enforce them.

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The Rules on "advice" are fairly clear. Flashing signals to an on-course reporter, particularly when done surreptitiously, does not come anywhere close to the "advice" definition.