Embedded Ball Holed?

[billchao]

2 minutes ago, Dutch Boy said:

IMO If the ball is embedded rule 16.3b applies and relief may be taken  by dropping a ball in the relief area right behind where the ball was embedded.

 

16.3b only applies when the ball is embedded in the general area.

[colin007]

10 minutes ago, Asheville said:

 

For the special case of a ball resting against the flagstick in the hole, see Rule 13.2c (ball is treated as holed if any part of the ball is below the surface of the putting green).

This certainly seems to be applicable here, no? So it's holed?

[Bonvivant]

What about this scenario? I get that it is highly unlikely, but I am just curious. If this is no good, what if 50 percent of the ball is in the cup, or 80? This is not a ball that has entered through the mouth, but it is a ball that is completely underneath the putting surface and within the confines of the hole.

I get the rule now, but I don't like the way it contradicts with replacement of a ball. That's something I'll just have to deal with if I'm ever as unfortunate as the guy that posted the picture.

[billchao]

@Bonvivant, rules for replacing a ball on a spot is 14.2. The section you want is d which covers where to replace a ball when the original lie is altered. Specially, 14.2d(2) for the putting green:

Quote

(2) Ball Anywhere Except in Sand. When the ball was anywhere except in sand, the player must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot with a lie most similar to the original lie that is:

• Within one club-length from its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2c),

• Not nearer the hole, and

• In the same area of the course as that spot.

 

6 minutes ago, colin007 said:

This certainly seems to be applicable here, no? So it's holed?

No, ball embedded in side of hole is covered in the interpretations which I quoted earlier.

[Bonvivant]

1 minute ago, billchao said:

@Bonvivant, rules for replacing a ball on a spot is 14.2. The section you want is d which covers where to replace a ball when the original lie is altered. Specially, 14.2d(2) for the putting green:

 

Thanks for the clarification. I read through the rules at one point in time, but definitely don't remember everything. This 14.2d(2) is the key. Cheers!

[billchao]

Just now, Bonvivant said:

Thanks for the clarification. I read through the rules at one point in time, but definitely don't remember everything. This 14.2d(2) is the key. Cheers!

Neither do I, but I try anyway. I focus on the general concepts and know how to look up the specifics when needed, like in this case. I couldn’t even tell you it was rule 14 until I looked it up.

Good thing I never became a lawyer 😃

[Dutch Boy]

Oops!, My first post and I got it wrong 😖

[billchao]

4 minutes ago, Dutch Boy said:

Oops!, My first post and I got it wrong 😖

No worries. I’ve made thousands of posts and have been wrong thousands of times. 😃

Welcome to TST, BTW.

[colin007]

34 minutes ago, billchao said:

@Bonvivant, rules for replacing a ball on a spot is 14.2. The section you want is d which covers where to replace a ball when the original lie is altered. Specially, 14.2d(2) for the putting green:

 

No, ball embedded in side of hole is covered in the interpretations which I quoted earlier.

I don't think any of us has as much info as we'd like based on the photo. Is it possible this ball is both embedded and resting against the stick?

[billchao]

Just now, colin007 said:

I don't think any of us has as much info as we'd like based on the photo. Is it possible this ball is both embedded and resting against the stick?

Still covered by the interpretation, which I’ll post again:

Quote

Holed/1 – All of the Ball Must Be Below the Surface to Be Holed When Embedded in Side of Hole

When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed. This is the case even if the ball touches the flagstick.

 

[dennyjones]

21 minutes ago, colin007 said:

I don't think any of us has as much info as we'd like based on the photo. Is it possible this ball is both embedded and resting against the stick?

Ya, I thought the same thing.   I downloaded the pic, blew it up and it is resting against the stick but I did learn something from this...Thanks Erik, Bill and Asheville.

[fredf]

20 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

What about this scenario? I get that it is highly unlikely, but I am just curious. If this is no good, what if 50 percent of the ball is in the cup, or 80? This is not a ball that has entered through the mouth, but it is a ball that is completely underneath the putting surface and within the confines of the hole.

I get the rule now, but I don't like the way it contradicts with replacement of a ball. That's something I'll just have to deal with if I'm ever as unfortunate as the guy that posted the picture.

The picture is interesting. Let's put aside the wrinkle that the likelihood is so close to zero to probably not matter.

IMO, the Rules do not provide an answer here, because it is entirely outside the situations that the Rules and Definitions are intended for. Consequently, this discussion is just speculation.

Rule 13.2c, ball against flagstick, does not apply. Rule 13.3, ball overhanging hole, does not apply because of line 1 "if any part of the ball overhangs the LIP of the hole", which is not the case here.

So we are left with trying to extract an answer from Holed/1's words: When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed.  For me, the ball is 1) embedded and 2) in the side of the hole, but it is not embedded in the side of the hole.  But this is an arguable semantic distinction.

If you want an answer, I think you need to send it in to the USGA.  They may reply with "call me when it happens".

[iacas]

21 minutes ago, fredf said:

IMO, the Rules do not provide an answer here, because it is entirely outside the situations that the Rules and Definitions are intended for. Consequently, this discussion is just speculation.

Thomas Pagel doesn't seem to agree that there's no answer within the Rules.

[Bonvivant]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

Thomas Pagel doesn't seem to agree that there's no answer within the Rules.

He's talking about my crude drawing I believe.

[iacas]

Just now, Bonvivant said:

He's talking about my crude drawing I believe.

Oh, yeah, I missed that if so.

I've only ever seen a ball really embed that deep on a very, very soft fairway. Never on a green down > 1.68".

[Asheville]

40 minutes ago, fredf said:

The picture is interesting. Let's put aside the wrinkle that the likelihood is so close to zero to probably not matter.

IMO, the Rules do not provide an answer here, because it is entirely outside the situations that the Rules and Definitions are intended for. Consequently, this discussion is just speculation.

Rule 13.2c, ball against flagstick, does not apply. Rule 13.3, ball overhanging hole, does not apply because of line 1 "if any part of the ball overhangs the LIP of the hole", which is not the case here.

So we are left with trying to extract an answer from Holed/1's words: When a ball is embedded in the side of the hole, and all of the ball is not below the surface of the putting green, the ball is not holed.  For me, the ball is 1) embedded and 2) in the side of the hole, but it is not embedded in the side of the hole.  But this is an arguable semantic distinction.

If you want an answer, I think you need to send it in to the USGA.  They may reply with "call me when it happens".

I can live with Holed/1. Should I see it, I'll call it in to the Tournament Director or SRO along with a photo.

[Bonvivant]

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

Oh, yeah, I missed that if so.

I've only ever seen a ball really embed that deep on a very, very soft fairway. Never on a green down > 1.68".

Yeah. Highly unlikely but I was just curious.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Yeah. Highly unlikely but I was just curious.

Given five seconds of thought, more than highly unlikely: almost impossible, given that there's going to be a plastic or metal cup liner in there, preventing any part of the ball from being "inside" the circumference of the hole. No?