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humblepeasant

Flag Knocked Down by Wind

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1 minute ago, humblepeasant said:

To me, though, it would be too time consuming and an unreasonable burden on players to have to ride or even walk all the way to the green and back before a tee shot on a par three, or a long second shot on a par 5 to the green, etc.

So the question is, where EXACTLY would you draw the line? Because that would so difficult to do in a completely objective and universal way, I guess that's why the rule is no penalty at all.

In my experience this is a very rare occurrence. The 1 time out of 1000 holes you play (or more) that you have to replace the flagstick before approaching is a drop in the bucket for pace of play. 

It sounds like your experience is happening a bit more frequently, if not often. In windy locations a local rule could be put in play to waive this penalty. 

1 minute ago, billchao said:

There’s no definition for approach.

And that’s before we start discussing why there would even be a penalty for the flagstick being out of the hole when playing from the general area but none when playing from the putting green.

Then re word it. Leave out the "player's responsiblity" part. It could be as simple as "If a player's ball comes in contact with the flagstick while the flagstick is removed from the hole, there will be a 1 stroke penalty and the ball shall be played as it lies". Happy?

Would you use the current rule to your advantage? Is that why you have a problem with this idea, or is it all PoP based? It honestly happens so infrequently that I don't think play would be slowed down. 

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12 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Then re word it.

No. It’s your rule proposal.

14 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Would you use the current rule to your advantage?

Do you take relief from movable obstructions? Do you take any relief options other than stroke and distance when your ball enters a penalty area?

Those are all “advantages” allowed under the RoG.

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43 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

As far as PoP is concerned, walking to replace the pin might take 3 minutes or so

230 yards from the green is 460 yards round trip. That’s over 1/4 mile. In 3 minutes, that’s over 5 mph. Not even I walk that fast. 

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Just now, Missouri Swede said:

230 yards from the green is 460 yards round trip. That’s over 1/4 mile. In 3 minutes, that’s over 5 mph. Not even I walk that fast. 

How often do you find the flagstick out of the hole when you get there? Is it from wind? If so, I mentioned that a local rule could be in place in windy areas.

 

Just now, billchao said:

Do you take relief from movable obstructions? Do you take any relief options other than stroke and distance when your ball enters a penalty area?

Those are all “advantages” allowed under the RoG.

Here is the difference in those "advantages" compared to the flagstick scenario. In the relief from, there is nothing actively helping you get the ball closer to the hole. In the flagstick scenario you are using or abusing a course abnormality that almost never happens to actively aid in you getting the ball closer to the hole than you normally could. To me, the flagstick scenario is an abuse of the rules where the relief is just use of the rules. That is the core problem that I have with it.

This is just my opinion. For me it is against the spirit of the game, and it doesn't sound like it is for you. It's ok to disagree and discuss stuff like this and I enjoy talking about it. I know that the likelihood of this rule ever changing is negligible, but I think it is still worth talking about. The RoG are complex and generally good, but there are some that I am not a fan of, and I speak my opinion on that.

Sorry if I come off harsh or mean or anything of the like. I don't do it out of malice, usually just misunderstanding or passion.

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44 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

How often do you find the flagstick out of the hole when you get there? Is it from wind?

Happened two days ago on my home course. 320 yard hole. It wasn’t windy while we were playing, and I don’t recall that it had been windy earlier that day, so probably not the wind.

My playing partner’s pitch into the green hit the flag on the surface of the green. It actually hindered him—the ball would have rolled a little closer to the hole. 

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Just now, Missouri Swede said:

Happened two days ago on my home course. 320 yard hole. It wasn’t windy while we were playing, and I don’t recall that it had been windy earlier that day, so probably not the wind.

My playing partner’s pitch into the green hit the flag on the surface of the green. It actually hindered him—the ball would have rolled a little closer to the hole. 

Shame he didn't move it. I saw it some in my youth on a little par 3 nearby where kids played a lot (and might forget to return the flag to the hole), but I didn't see it in the 50 or so rounds that I played last year. On a fully crowded course, I don't think that this would slow down pace at all (to go fix the flag) because you will just catch the log jam on the next tee (or at least I will).  

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57 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Here is the difference in those "advantages" compared to the flagstick scenario. In the relief from, there is nothing actively helping you get the ball closer to the hole.

It absolutely gets you closer to the hole. Any drop that isn’t stroke and distance is getting you closer to the hole.

And being able to remove a movable obstruction can be looked at as not playing the course as you found it, even though you are allowed to take certain actions under the RoG. Is that not an advantage, provided for under the rules? What if the rules were to say, “Your ball rolled under a fallen branch, tough cookies?”

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

This is just my opinion. For me it is against the spirit of the game, and it doesn't sound like it is for you. It's ok to disagree and discuss stuff like this and I enjoy talking about it. I know that the likelihood of this rule ever changing is negligible, but I think it is still worth talking about. The RoG are complex and generally good, but there are some that I am not a fan of, and I speak my opinion on that.

I’m just trying to point out how arbitrary your position seems to be. Like you just decided at this point gaining an advantage allowed under the RoG is crossing the line, despite the many other situations that exist where an advantage can be legally gained.

1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

Sorry if I come off harsh or mean or anything of the like. I don't do it out of malice, usually just misunderstanding or passion.

All good, dude. If I’m going to get worked up over someone on the internet disagreeing with me about the rules of golf, I need to seriously reevaluate my life 😜

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@billchao, just an active advantage. Using something that shouldn't be there (I don't think you would argue that the pin is supposed to be laying on the green before you get there) to advantage yourself feels scummy to me and I think that the rules should eliminate scummy play. To me it would be no different than slamming a long putt into your opponents shoe as he marks his/her ball that is right next to the hole. I would assume (big assumption) that is against the rules, why should the flag be different?

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5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Here's the rule:

You can remove the obstruction.  It doesn't say you have to wait until its your turn, it says you can remove it.  That's Rule 15.2a. The flagstick is specifically listed as obstruction in the definition of obstruction.  

Absolutely right. But here is where the rules get a little quirky:

Assume flagstick is lying on the green in a position to assist your chip, eg just behind the hole, having been left there by the previous group or blown there before you played to the green. Your opponent exercises that right to remove that movable obstruction (R 15.2a). However you want it back there so you exercise your right under Interpretation 8.1d(1)/2 to have it replaced. You make the stroke with the flagstick replaced. But now your opponent lifts the flagstick again while your ball is in motion, as permitted by the Exception to Rule 11.3. All are legitimate under the Rules.

The big picture has been identified above, providing you (or partner/caddie) did not put the flagstick there, you are free to leave it in place.  You live with the consequences and there is no penalty. But others are also free to lift the flagstick while your ball is in motion.

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1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

@billchao, just an active advantage. Using something that shouldn't be there (I don't think you would argue that the pin is supposed to be laying on the green before you get there) to advantage yourself feels scummy to me and I think that the rules should eliminate scummy play. To me it would be no different than slamming a long putt into your opponents shoe as he marks his/her ball that is right next to the hole. I would assume (big assumption) that is against the rules, why should the flag be different?

Yes, that is a big assumption. There is nothing 'against the rules' in hitting an opponent accidentally, but the rules guide you on what to do next in that case, see Rule 11 in particular.  But flagsticks are a special part of golf (unlike that shoe), so I don't find it at all surprising that the flagstick story is more complicated.

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@Bonvivant, just stop. You're arbitrarily making up Rules based on what you think makes sense, and ignoring all of the holes people are poking into it.

Furthermore, there's really no such thing as "the spirit of the rules." There's a thing called "the spirit of the game," and part of that is playing under the Rules, but the rules are basically all made up, so as long as you're following them, whatever they are, you're obeying the spirit of the game.

It's not "against the spirit of the rules" for Tiger to have spectators move a large loose impediment (even if they move it the wrong direction), and it's not "against the spirit of the rules" (or the game) to take a drop from a shitty lie into a great lie because your back right heel is on a cart path. Nor is it bad of you, if you have a great lie, to opt not to take relief because you're on the same cart path.

There are just Rules, and while the Rules are all somewhat arbitrary, they do follow some guiding principles, and they do strive to eliminate or minimize grey areas while maintaining equity, and your proposed rules for a situation you admit isn't that frequent are almost none of those things.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

@Bonvivant, just stop. You're arbitrarily making up Rules based on what you think makes sense, and ignoring all of the holes people are poking into it.

Furthermore, there's really no such thing as "the spirit of the rules." There's a thing called "the spirit of the game," and part of that is playing under the Rules, but the rules are basically all made up, so as long as you're following them, whatever they are, you're obeying the spirit of the game.

It's not "against the spirit of the rules" for Tiger to have spectators move a large loose impediment (even if they move it the wrong direction), and it's not "against the spirit of the rules" (or the game) to take a drop from a shitty lie into a great lie because your back right heel is on a cart path. Nor is it bad of you, if you have a great lie, to opt not to take relief because you're on the same cart path.

There are just Rules, and while the Rules are all somewhat arbitrary, they do follow some guiding principles, and they do strive to eliminate or minimize grey areas while maintaining equity, and your proposed rules for a situation you admit isn't that frequent are almost none of those things.

The only potential hole that I've seen in my purposed rule is that it will slow down play. I just disagree about what the spirit of the game is. Would fans move that rock for Ian Poulter, Kuchar, or Reed? Almost certainly not, so they shouldn't do it for Tiger. That situation is absolutely against the spirit of the game. "I'm a superstar so move that boulder for me because I messed up a shot!" Sitting on a tee box for 3 minutes without playing because you can't figure out the wind? Against the spirit of the game. Man up and play promptly, proudly, and with integrity. Don't whine cause you didn't get your way, and don't abuse the rules just cause you can.

My rule has more equity than the current rule in this situation, and eliminates the grey area, and the guiding principal is honor in my mind.

I think that the current rule is bad, and I purposed an alternative. No one said you had to like it. I've responded to what people have had to say about it, and if my responses weren't good enough then so be it. Is there a reason that we should stop discussing what could be changed, or how the current rules effect play? I thought it was a forum. 

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38 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

The only potential hole that I've seen in my purposed rule is that it will slow down play.

There have been other holes pointed out. The first four that spring to mind:

  • You've not defined "approach"
  • You're not treating like situations alike. That's at the core of "equity."
  • You're punishing a player because of the actions of the wind? Another careless player?
  • You're not "playing the course as you found it" and accepting good and bad breaks that occur as a result.
38 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I just disagree about what the spirit of the game is.

It's not an opinion. The spirit of the game is defined, and it means:

  • act with integrity (including following the Rules)
  • show consideration for others
  • take care of the course

That's it. That's the "spirit of the game."

There's no "spirit of the rules." When people say things like that, it's usually - as is the case with you - what people "feel" like things should be.

38 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Would fans move that rock for Ian Poulter, Kuchar, or Reed? Almost certainly not, so they shouldn't do it for Tiger.

That's not how the Rules work.

If the rock is large enough that a smaller player cannot move it, should every player in the field be precluded from moving it? No. That's a ridiculous position to take, if you understand the Rules.

38 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

That situation is absolutely against the spirit of the game.

No, it's not. Go ahead and tell me which of the three bullet points it violates. The answer? None.

38 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Sitting on a tee box for 3 minutes without playing because you can't figure out the wind? Against the spirit of the game.

You'd have a better case if you just pointed out that would be against the ACTUAL rules of golf.

38 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

My rule has more equity than the current rule in this situation, and eliminates the grey area, and the guiding principal is honor in my mind.

No, it doesn't.

38 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I think that the current rule is bad, and I purposed an alternative.

Your alternative is lousy.

38 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

Is there a reason that we should stop discussing what could be changed, or how the current rules effect play? I thought it was a forum. 

The OP's question has been answered.


So, move on. This is not the place for you to learn about the Rules of Golf, the concept of equity, or otherwise for a huge discussion on "rules theory" or anything else. Someone had a rules question, it's been answered, and anything additional is both off-topic and muddies the waters.

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13 hours ago, Bonvivant said:

@billchao, just an active advantage. Using something that shouldn't be there (I don't think you would argue that the pin is supposed to be laying on the green before you get there) to advantage yourself feels scummy to me and I think that the rules should eliminate scummy play. To me it would be no different than slamming a long putt into your opponents shoe as he marks his/her ball that is right next to the hole. I would assume (big assumption) that is against the rules, why should the flag be different?

I'd suggest that if you are going to discuss changing the rules, and include specific examples for comparison, you should at least do a little research to understand what the rules say right now.

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9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'd suggest that if you are going to discuss changing the rules, and include specific examples for comparison, you should at least do a little research to understand what the rules say right now.

I'm not talking about it any longer because the question is solved. You are right, I don't know what the rule says exactly, but for me having the option to leave the flag on the putting surface where your shot is intended to go feels like cheating even if it is within the rules. 

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1 hour ago, Bonvivant said:

 feels like cheating even if it is within the rules. 

There you go - I think that statement really nicely sums up your position.  I'l acknowledge your feeling here and understand where you are coming from.

However, just because it "feels" like cheating to you, it's not a justification for changing rules.  Everybody has a rule they "feel" is bad, but rules are subjective and someone else might "feel" exactly the opposite.  Rules are pretty random - what's 'fair', is just that they are defined (not inferred), and everyone follows the same rules for those rounds that pit us against each other or our own performance.

Best to avoid subjectivity.  A discussion is interesting, but only up to the point where we try to convert others with a different view on it.  Then it goes from being a discussion, to just repetition.

 

Edited by rehmwa

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9 minutes ago, rehmwa said:

Rules are pretty random - what's 'fair', is just that they are defined (not inferred), and everyone follows the same rules for those rounds that pit us against each other or our own performance.

I don't really think that the rules are all that random, there are some principles that consistently run throughout.  The flagstick rule is consistent with one of those, as @iacas has said, "Play the course as you find it." Of course there are some "lines" that have to be drawn, and by their very nature the decision on those lines is a bit arbitrary.   For those who want to understand how the rules fit together, I recommend you get a short book called "The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf".  

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I don't really think that the rules are all that random, there are some principles that consistently run throughout.

Sure, everything game professes a 'theme', but if they threw something completely inconsistent and random in there....it would be in there and, by definition, part of the game.  Consistency with the theme is good.  But it's not necessary.

That book actually sounds interesting - I must be very bored (working from home waiting for the electrical inspector to show up and tell me what I did wrong with my basement wiring).

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