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iacas

USGA/R&A Distance Insights Project

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53 minutes ago, iacas said:

Screen Shot 2020-02-04 at 12.37.14 PM.png

 

How are they isolating variables here? Can they definitively say that increased distance is due to equipment? Didn’t course setups change over the years to make “bomb and gouge” golf more viable to begin with?

14 minutes ago, lastings said:

who wouldn't want to see 48% more movement on professional tee shots, now that we have shot tracer?  Bubba golf would be all over the place.

I wouldn’t. If I want to watch golf balls curve a bunch, I’d sit on the first tee of my local muni.

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10 minutes ago, billchao said:

How are they isolating variables here? Can they definitively say that increased distance is due to equipment? Didn’t course setups change over the years to make “bomb and gouge” golf more viable to begin with?

They're not.

26 minutes ago, lastings said:

I've said it before, I'll say it again.   make Tour Players go back to wound golf balls.

Two thoughts:

  • No.
  • Why?

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4 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Two thoughts:

  • No.
  • Why?

Because, while it would still be possible to bomb it the way they do today (which fans like to see), average driving distances would naturally regress as it would be much more risky to swing out of your shoes.  

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6 minutes ago, lastings said:

Because, while it would still be possible to bomb it the way they do today (which fans like to see), average driving distances would naturally regress as it would be much more risky to swing out of your shoes.  

Again, why?

Who wants to see that? I don’t.

And that assumes it’s even possible. And that players couldn’t adapt. That equipment couldn’t adapt.

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7 minutes ago, iacas said:

Again, why?

Who wants to see that? I don’t.

And that assumes it’s even possible. And that players couldn’t adapt. That equipment couldn’t adapt.

Well, if you don’t think that distance is an issue that needs to be fixed, then there is no answer to “why?”

but, if you do believe it’s an issue and needs to regress, I think this would be a better way to go than just having reduced distance golf balls.   

Players absolutely could and would adapt.  But they would adapt by reverting to tee strategies prior to the late 90s.  Which, of course, is different for every player.  

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How 'bout letting the tour pros stay where they are... no longer in distance.  Don't shorten them either.  Keep the new club specs and ball specs the same to rein the pros in.  Don't make them change their game from where it is today.  

On the other hand, allow technology to advance the games of amateurs... just so the game is more fun and grows.

I don't know... it's all so complicated. Yes, it's bifurcation.  And so undemocratic.  

Edited by Double Mocha Man

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I have never heard anyone complain that professional baseball players have to use wood bats, but high school players get to use metal.  

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... and then when you're fortunate to be drafted and go into the minor league system you learn how to swing a wood bat.  Golf pros, in training, on the lower tours could begin using the "Tour Pro" equipment to get up to speed for when they reach (if they reach) the major tours.  Same same.

Edited by Double Mocha Man

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1 hour ago, lastings said:

Players absolutely could and would adapt.  But they would adapt by reverting to tee strategies prior to the late 90s.  Which, of course, is different for every player.  

That is not how they’d adapt. No.

47 minutes ago, lastings said:

I have never heard anyone complain that professional baseball players have to use wood bats, but high school players get to use metal.  

Not the same at all.

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37 minutes ago, iacas said:

Not the same at all.

The new technology that makes the ball easier to hit and makes the ball go farther being embraced by amateurs even though said technology is not allowed at the professional level.    I'm having trouble seeing how that is not the same at all.  

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35 minutes ago, lastings said:

The new technology that makes the ball easier to hit and makes the ball go farther being embraced by amateurs even though said technology is not allowed at the professional level.    I'm having trouble seeing how that is not the same at all.  

Players move across the line all the time in golf. In baseball, the college players that move on to play professional sports don't do so at the highest level intermittently. They play A ball, or AA ball, and have years to continue to grow, develop, adapt, etc.

They don't play a college event one week and then qualify for some major amateur or professional event which requires what would be the golf equivalent of wooden bats the next week, and then go right back to the metal bat equivalent the week after that.

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42 minutes ago, iacas said:

Players move across the line all the time in golf. In baseball, the college players that move on to play professional sports don't do so at the highest level intermittently. They play A ball, or AA ball, and have years to continue to grow, develop, adapt, etc.

They don't play a college event one week and then qualify for some major amateur or professional event which requires what would be the golf equivalent of wooden bats the next week, and then go right back to the metal bat equivalent the week after that.

yeah?   so what?   wanna be a professional, learn to play like a professional.   practice with a professional ball.  maybe spend a couple years on the Korn Ferry tour, if you can't figure it out right away.   Everyone has to make the same adjustment.   Heck, The entire tour made the switch in reverse in 2000/2001.   did they all say, "oh no! i'm used to playing with wound balls, I'll never be able to adapt!   It'll take years.  I can't shape these the same!"   Nope, they said, "welp, if I don't learn to adapt, I'm gonna lost my tour card.   I guess I'll adapt."      PGA players are the best ball strikers in the world.   they could figure out how to score with a rock.. 

Sorry, these guys are simply too good to use the same crutches the rest of us schlubs need.   We already make them play from longer distances, with thicker rough, on faster greens, with tougher pins.   It wouldn't be a massive handicap to roll back golf ball technology a bit, to help save the integrity of some golf holes. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by lastings

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6 minutes ago, lastings said:

yeah?   so what?

So what? It directly refutes your contention that baseball and golf are the same in this regard. They're not.

6 minutes ago, lastings said:

wanna be a professional, learn to play like a professional.

Did you just skip over the parts where I used the word "amateur" above?

6 minutes ago, lastings said:

Sorry, these guys are simply too good to use the same crutches the rest of us schlubs need.

Now it's a crutch?

I'm out on your takes on this. You're talking nonsense at this point.

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This is something that comes up frequently from people in favor of limiting distance:

Does anyone have any actual proof that equipment benefits the pros more than us? I hear a lot of people saying that, but I've never seen any actual proof.

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12 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

Does anyone have any actual proof that equipment benefits the pros more than us? I hear a lot of people saying that, but I've never seen any actual proof.

There is none.

This was a thing awhile back: https://thesandtrap.com/b/swing_thoughts/the_mythical_ball_boost.

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23 minutes ago, iacas said:

So what? It directly refutes your contention that baseball and golf are the same in this regard. They're not.

They absolutely are.   I grew up playing baseball with a few guys that thought they had a chance at going Pro.   one of which did.   Guess what they did to prepare?   Played in a bunch of wood bat tournaments (where, coincidentally, there would often be professional scouts hanging around).    took a ton of batting practice with wood bats.   learned how to not get sawed off.  but, they were amateurs, who also had premier summer baseball and high school baseball with metal bats and off to college with metal bats.   they just had the mentality that they had to prepare because one day things would change.  

Quote

Did you just skip over the parts where I used the word "amateur" above?

No.  but, if you would like play in a tournament organized by the Professional Golfers Association, you have to learn to platy like a professional.   Maybe professionals play differently.

Quote

Now it's a crutch?

does playing with a ball that spins significantly less off the tee and flies farther, all while having the same spin around the greens not make the game easier?   

Quote

I'm out on your takes on this. You're talking nonsense at this point.

We see things differently, and I'm ok with that.   

Edited by lastings

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1 minute ago, lastings said:

They absolutely are.

They're very different, and I've already shared why.

1 minute ago, lastings said:

No.  but, if you would like play in a tournament organized by the Professional Golfers Association, you have to learn to platy like a professional. Maybe professional play differently.

Huh? Doesn't address my points, and I think you mean the PGA of America, which doesn't really organize that many events.

1 minute ago, lastings said:

does playing with a ball that spins significantly less off the tee and flies farther, all while having the same spin around the greens not make the game easier?

They had that ball in the 80s and 90s, too. It was often stamped "Pinnacle" or something. It's not a "crutch," and no, it doesn't make the game easier.

1 minute ago, lastings said:

We see things differently, and I'm ok with that.

Good.

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5 hours ago, lastings said:

Players absolutely could and would adapt.  But they would adapt by reverting to tee strategies prior to the late 90s.  Which, of course, is different for every player.

At the end of the day, the bomber guy still has to game his ball.  There are lots of guys who hit it long and don't make money on Tour.  Hitting it long and in play is a skill.  That's why guys like Rory and Tiger are so great.  It's not like they have found some secret cheat code to golf that is unfair.  It takes arguably more talent and skill to play golf with speed because you have to have so many things go correctly to keep the ball on line.  Case in point, it's a lot easier to hit the ball "straight" if you don't hit it very far--the ball doesn't have the speed  to go as far offline.  Hence, the fast guys on tour that you claim swing with reckless abandon are actually a better breed of golfers.  That is progress in the game of golf, and it is not all to do with equipment as we have better athletes playing the game today.

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