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Jay Chizza

Why Does a Big Money Amateur Event Not Exist?

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9 minutes ago, iacas said:

Pretty sure anyone who entered such an event would no longer be an amateur golfer.

Yes indeed.  But, at the same time, if you win a car at a charity golf tournament, if you choose to accept the prize,  you lose your USGA amateur status.  But at the same time, you don't lose your amateur status by merely entering the charity tournament, whereas your entry into a tournament that pays cash automatically disqualifies you from USGA.

That being said, I think it's a matter of personal preference / choice....  Personally, if there was a tournament like a "World AM that paid cold hard cash," I'd gladly renounce my amateur status, in two seconds.  

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8 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

He mentioned that he thought that only 1 percent of golfers participated in USGA sanctioned events, and therefore would not mind this.

Doesn't matter - they couldn't play in club events, local amateur events, the World Am he loves so much, etc.

3 minutes ago, Jay Chizza said:

But, at the same time, if you win a car at a charity golf tournament, if you choose to accept the prize,  you lose your USGA amateur status.

Not for a hole in one, no. You've got some bad information.

3 minutes ago, Jay Chizza said:

But at the same time, you don't lose your amateur status by merely entering the charity tournament, whereas your entry into a tournament that pays cash automatically disqualifies you from USGA.

Correct.

3 minutes ago, Jay Chizza said:

That being said, I think it's a matter of personal preference / choice....  Personally, if there was a tournament like a "World AM that paid cold hard cash," I'd gladly renounce my amateur status, in two seconds.  

I think you're in a very small minority. If there was money to be made in golf, I think people would have done something like this, especially since the World Am already exists as a sort of model.

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4 minutes ago, Bonvivant said:

I know that it is fairly popular in the pool world, but I don't think that this would be quite as enticing to golfers.

This is one of those things where it will just require some rich Saudi's to throw a bunch of money to turn this concept into a business I guess, lol.  

That aside, think about this from all angles... Random example to give context.. when AirBNB first launched they were flamed to bits. I've never, to this day seen such a flaming of a tech start up in my life. "Who's going to just rent out their house to some stranger?"  "Who's just going to rent out a spare bed room to some stranger?!" Ha! "This is the dumbest idea ever."  Now, they're a mega multi billion dollar company.  

Back then, the idea sounded completely ridiculous. I'm not going to lie, I thought the investors were drunk.  

That being said, when I said a big time Casino chain could slap their name on a concept like this and kill it... I really mean it.  

The MGM for Example has the Shadow Creek Golf Course where Tiger and Phil had "the match."  It would be absolutely NO problem for them to get 100 guys to put $10,000 into a golf tournament where best net score wins (with strict anti sandbagging measures in place = very very loose "disqualify" button).  There'd be all sorts of side bets, prop bets, etc.  

Their main problem would be getting enough people who've posted enough scores to GHIN in order to be handicapped in the first place.  

I see the demographic being the gambler / golfer type who doesn't really care much about maintaining his "amateur status" if he can gamble on golf in an environment that feels "safe" (very liberal disqualify button).  

 

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think you're in a very small minority. If there was money to be made in golf, I think people would have done something like this, especially since the World Am already exists as a sort of model.

I've made my living off this motto "there's riches in the niches."  

By the way... every idea starts off as a dumb idea.  Generally speaking, any idea that goes against "the norm" is considered a bad idea. It's how we humans are wired.  Can you imagine the very first person who said to his family; "I'm going to start a business!" The family said "what business?" The person said; "I'm going to put water in bottles and sell it."  Family says; "oh dear, see a doc, the water is free!"  

I alluded to AirBNB above.  People willing to rent their homes to total strangers were in an extreme minority.  Many people swore there were no people willing to rent their homes to total strangers.  Now look.  

The annals of history is littered with what sounded like really bad ideas, that actually turned out otherwise.  Steve Jobs told his staff; "we're going to put an entire computer in peoples' pocket."  Can you imagine being those engineers?  The very first iPhone prototype was the size of an old school DVD player.  

Therefore... I surmise it may be easier to get a bunch of hacks to gamble on golf.  Count me in!

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45 minutes ago, Jay Chizza said:

I alluded to AirBNB above.  People willing to rent their homes to total strangers were in an extreme minority.  Many people swore there were no people willing to rent their homes to total strangers.  Now look.  

That's not really true. Time shares, rental properties, etc. were a thing LOOOONG before AirBnB.

I think you're vastly over-estimating the size of the potential market here.

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2 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's not really true. Time shares, rental properties, etc. were a thing LOOOONG before AirBnB.

I think you're vastly over-estimating the size of the potential market here.

In all fairness, I never estimated market size.  I did use the Myrtle Beach WorldAM as an example. Principally, to point out their approach to dealing with sandbaggers.  However, that wasn't my "estimating the market."

That being said, great point on timeshares and such.  The original investors asked AirBNB how they expected to differentiate from the business models you pointed out, you should def take a peak at their original slide deck. But, in trying to illustrate a point, I see how the essence of what I was saying can get lost.

To be more laser precise... Is there a market of hacks willing to gamble money on golf? Yes. Do you or I know the market size? No.  Would I be a willing participant? You bet.  Do I care about maintaining "amateur status?" No.  Are there more people who feel the same way? I say yes.  Can I say how many feel the same way? No. 

Would I be willing to bet the life of my children that the MGM Grand Can Successfully Host a $10,000 Buy-In Handicapped Golf Tournament at Shadow Creek for folks who shoot high 80's / low 90's?  I certainly would.  Would I participate? In a heartbeat.  

This thread has been insightful.  So many layers to this thread.  If you look at it from 10,000 feet above, totally removed you see human nature at work.  We are wired with this button that automatically resist change.  We are wired to instantly reject any ideas or thoughts that fly against conventional beliefs.  

We can't help it. We were wired that way as a survival mechanism.

That being said... I digress... Resistance to change is why golf handicaps haven't gone down in decades, even thought technology has improved.  

This has been truly fascinating and thank you for your participation.  

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21 minutes ago, Jay Chizza said:

This thread has been insightful.  So many layers to this thread.  If you look at it from 10,000 feet above, totally removed you see human nature at work.  We are wired with this button that automatically resist change.  We are wired to instantly reject any ideas or thoughts that fly against conventional beliefs.  

Oy. Why ask for commentary if your mind is made up. Waste of time.

People raised legitimate concerns and roadblocks and you write it off as resisting change. Okay man.

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

Oy. Why ask for commentary if your mind is made up. Waste of time.

People raised legitimate concerns and roadblocks and you write it off as resisting change. Okay man.

I very sorry for the confusion.  This is the internet and one thing I've learned about communicating online is that it's easily for points to be missed, or misinterpreted.  

 It seems that most people on this thread have construed my question to be my pitching a business idea.  I could be wrong, but when I read replies like "you can try" in earlier replies, and your raising "legitimate concerns and roadblocks," it generally means there's been an examination fo a business idea.  Am I wrong? 

That said, I just wanted to know why hacks couldn't gamble on golf for big bucks.  I wanted to know why such a "product" did not exist.  I would love to consume this product if it existed. I would love to siphon off money from my poker bankroll to gamble on golf with other hacks. I have zero interest in building this as a business. I just want to go somewhere, throw $x,000 or $xx,000 into a pot, compete against 155 other guys, and walk away with the biggest check I can.  Nonetheless, As you perfectly stated, I am in the extreme minority.  

The replies I've received on this thread demonstrate the fact that I am in the extreme minority.  Perhaps I could have made my point a bit more succinct.  

I will give you this... maybe "resisting change" was a poor choice of words. I'll give you that. But, it's an incontrovertible fact that us humans don't take too kindly to new ideas that fly against the norm.  Is that more fair?  Does this thread not demonstrate what psychology has taught us?  

I hope this clarifies things.  

 

 

Edited by Jay Chizza

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1 hour ago, iacas said:

Oy. Why ask for commentary if your mind is made up. Waste of time.

People raised legitimate concerns and roadblocks and you write it off as resisting change. Okay man.

Also, can I ask you a question?  What would the average PGA Pro think of hacks playing for big bucks?  It's probably unfair for me to ask you to speak for all PGA Pros, so I'll ask you.  How would YOU personally feel to know of a tournament with a  $1M prize pool, where the average handicap is 15 for example?  

From MY perspective as a crappy golfer, no one grows up aspiring to be a teaching professional (those who do are in the extreme minority).  Most PGA Pros had designs on playing professionally so  I were to put myself in a pros' shoes, I'd be sick to my stomach.  Hacks slap sticking around the course playing for 5 and 6 figure sums of cash... I'd throw up all over my wedges.... personally.  You?

 

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4 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

The guy who won as a high handicapper and become world champ got a couple of gift cards, free entry, and a trophy I believe.  What if that same guy could walk away with a check for $25,000 USD instead?  What if the guy in 2nd got $10,000 in cold hard cash? 3rd $5,000 - and so on.  All 12-15 cappers... 

There is no way a tournament would have enough entries to support a $25,000 price without the entry fees themselves being absolutely ludicrous or there being too many players to make it onto the course.

Your predicted prize pool is somewhere in the neighborhood of $50,000. Assuming the house takes a generously small 25% cut, that means that there is about $65,000 in entry fees just to support prize money and tournament organization. Assuming 100 players, a large number for a single course to host without PGA-level prep work, that's $650 of their entry fee going to just the prizes and tournament organizers. Then there's the greens fees - Myrtle Beach golf isn't cheap and each round of golf will cost you about $75 even with a bulk discount for organizing a tournament like that. The entry fee just went up to $725, and that's not even counting any other goodies included with the tournament.

You expect players to pay $725 or more in tournament entry fees and just be okay with possibly being disqualified because they played well? You also expect players to accept getting disqualified, regardless of entry fees, when they stand to gain $25,000 because they just played the best golf of their life? You'd be up to your neck in lawsuits before you could even say, "statistics" because improbable doesn't mean impossible. 

You'd also be hard pressed to organize more than one of those types of tournaments a year, and the main draw for it would not be the cash prizes but the resort location it could be hosted at (since a local area would not support such a tournament, it would need to be travel-worthy). The golfers with a handicap to play in such a tournament (you'd need a high handicap to be interested, because low handicappers know they have no chance) are not the type to spend big bucks on tournament entry fees. Generally speaking, the majority of golfers willing to spend that kind of money for a tournament are low handicap players, so your audience would be incredibly limited. You'd also have to notify all golfers competing that they would need to revoke their amateur status before the tournament to accept any prize money in the end, which would turn off another large swatch of players. 

I could see it being fun for a very specific group of people, but the issue is that the exorbitant cost of hosting such an event combined with the very limited audience means it would be unlikely to catch on in any widespread fashion. Money doesn't grow on trees, and your potential customer base only gets smaller the larger the prize pool is because no sponsor will waste their money on that tournament's prize pool (it would not be televised and would receive minimal exposure) and the cost of entry would skyrocket accordingly.

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31 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

There is no way a tournament would have enough entries to support a $25,000 price without the entry fees themselves being absolutely ludicrous or there being too many players to make it onto the course.

Your predicted prize pool is somewhere in the neighborhood of $50,000. Assuming the house takes a generously small 25% cut, that means that there is about $65,000 in entry fees just to support prize money and tournament organization. Assuming 100 players, a large number for a single course to host without PGA-level prep work, that's $650 of their entry fee going to just the prizes and tournament organizers. Then there's the greens fees - Myrtle Beach golf isn't cheap and each round of golf will cost you about $75 even with a bulk discount for organizing a tournament like that. The entry fee just went up to $725, and that's not even counting any other goodies included with the tournament.

You expect players to pay $725 or more in tournament entry fees and just be okay with possibly being disqualified because they played well? You also expect players to accept getting disqualified, regardless of entry fees, when they stand to gain $25,000 because they just played the best golf of their life? You'd be up to your neck in lawsuits before you could even say, "statistics" because improbable doesn't mean impossible. 

You'd also be hard pressed to organize more than one of those types of tournaments a year, and the main draw for it would not be the cash prizes but the resort location it could be hosted at (since a local area would not support such a tournament, it would need to be travel-worthy). The golfers with a handicap to play in such a tournament (you'd need a high handicap to be interested, because low handicappers know they have no chance) are not the type to spend big bucks on tournament entry fees. Generally speaking, the majority of golfers willing to spend that kind of money for a tournament are low handicap players, so your audience would be incredibly limited. You'd also have to notify all golfers competing that they would need to revoke their amateur status before the tournament to accept any prize money in the end, which would turn off another large swatch of players. 

I could see it being fun for a very specific group of people, but the issue is that the exorbitant cost of hosting such an event combined with the very limited audience means it would be unlikely to catch on in any widespread fashion. Money doesn't grow on trees, and your potential customer base only gets smaller the larger the prize pool is because no sponsor will waste their money on that tournament's prize pool (it would not be televised and would receive minimal exposure) and the cost of entry would skyrocket accordingly.

It's amazing that you have devoted so many brain cells to my brain fart! Amazing. A lot of stuff to unpack here.  First...

It's important to understand that I posted a question based on my desire to consume a product.  As a consumer, I would love to throw $x,00 or $x,000 $xx,000 into a tournament to compete with players in my skill level. 

Your replies reflect an examination into a "business idea."  It seems that my OP was interpreted as my soliciting the opinions of strangers on the internet as it relates to a business idea.  I'm not sure what kind of serious entrepreneur does that... That notwithstanding, IF this were to be an examination of a business idea, we'd have to throw away ALL of your assumptions - AND MINE.  

Then, here's EXACTLY what we do...

  1.  Create some marketing.  Put 100% into making it look like the proposed offering does in fact exist. 
  2. Buy hyper targeted traffic on social media which points people to a funnel.  "Sign Up to Join the Really Bad Golfer Tour to Claim Your Shot at Golf Riches!!!"  Measure conversions at the top of the funnel.  The top of the funnel starts with your CTR.  Test and iterate for optimal CTR... Then...
  3.  Push people a page what presents them with an offer; "Sign Up to Get..." Then, measure opt-in rates.
  4. Start pushing your opt-ins to surveys in exchange for an incentive; "complete survey for $XX Golf Galaxy Gift Card."  Make sure the survey is designed to answer the most important question... Whatever that is.

Then, if all tests come back positive, and survey results gathered, THEN you can start making assumptions. THEN, you TEST those assumptions.  

If those assumptions are affirmed, then you ship a minimum viable product. In this instance, it could be a one nine holer tournament.  Build. Measure. Learn.  

This is called lean startup methodology.  The Lean Start Up teaches us to avoid making assumptions, and to run tests.  The lean startup teaches us to build, measure, and learn and iterate through a feedback loop so as to make it nearly impossible to invest significant sums of money, and time building stuff no one wants.  

That being said, I'm kinda tied up with the startup I'm presently working on... no time to build a golf gambling business but can't wait till someone nails it so I can participate! 

Edited by Jay Chizza

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Answer 1: Because it is not amateur golf.

Answer 2: What form of golf could be worse than a tournament full of cheats with fake handicaps trying to hustle honest players out of their entry fees?

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6 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

I very sorry for the confusion.  This is the internet and one thing I've learned about communicating online is that it's easily for points to be missed, or misinterpreted.

No, there's no confusion on my end. Perhaps on yours.

Your reply, to summarize, was that the reactions you're reading here are just typical Internet knee-jerk reactions to say "no, no, no" to any new idea.

And my response says "that's not what's happening here."

6 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

That said, I just wanted to know why hacks couldn't gamble on golf for big bucks.

People have given you very real reasons.

6 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

I wanted to know why such a "product" did not exist.

Because it would fail. For reasons given and some others.

6 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

I would love to consume this product if it existed.

There are not enough of you, and you would hate it after the first iteration when all the cheaters won.

6 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

I will give you this... maybe "resisting change" was a poor choice of words. I'll give you that. But, it's an incontrovertible fact that us humans don't take too kindly to new ideas that fly against the norm.  Is that more fair?  Does this thread not demonstrate what psychology has taught us?

Again, no. You can't just re-state the same thing and ask if it's "fair." People aren't posting here just because they "resist change." Hell, there is no change being talked about here - just an idea.

6 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

From MY perspective as a crappy golfer, no one grows up aspiring to be a teaching professional (those who do are in the extreme minority).  Most PGA Pros had designs on playing professionally

Yeah, maybe that was true 30 years ago. It's not all that accurate these days. You're basing a lot of what you seem to believe on massive, hard-wired, often faulty assumptions.

6 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

so I were to put myself in a pros' shoes, I'd be sick to my stomach. Hacks slap sticking around the course playing for 5 and 6 figure sums of cash... I'd throw up all over my wedges.... personally.  You?

I couldn't care less.

If it was real, it'd still be a business, with costs, so it wouldn't even be zero sum game. The average contestant is losing money when they enter, because every dollar the organizers made would be a dollar that someone else gave them. Even if it was a zero sum game, the bottom 75% of the field would be losing money.

Why would I throw up all over my wedges when people play for less of their own money than they invested? I don't "throw up all over my wedges" because someone wins the lottery every week somewhere. Couldn't care less.

See, here, once again you're (badly) attempting to put my opinion in a certain bucket: "oh, he hates it because he's a PGA professional." Dude, you're so far off base.

5 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

It's important to understand that I posted a question based on my desire to consume a product.  As a consumer, I would love to throw $x,00 or $x,000 $xx,000 into a tournament to compete with players in my skill level.

I have a solution for you.

I'll bet you $50,000, straight up. I'll be an… 18 handicap. I'm the administrator of my GHIN eClub, so you can trust me on that one. If you don't want to play me, I'll find someone in my eClub to play you. They'll be an 18, too. Please let me know what score will get us disqualified, though, and I'll be sure to shoot or have "my guy" shoot one higher than that. You name the date and the course, and please bring your cash and leave it with my Italian friend, "Knuckles" for safe keeping while we play.

5 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

Your replies reflect an examination into a "business idea."  It seems that my OP was interpreted as my soliciting the opinions of strangers on the internet as it relates to a business idea.  I'm not sure what kind of serious entrepreneur does that...

Have you ever heard of Kickstarter? (Before you take that far too seriously, I get that it's not exactly the same.)

5 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

The Lean Start Up teaches us to avoid making assumptions, and to run tests.

So you're doing… what? The opposite?

4 hours ago, leftybutnotPM said:

Answer 1: Because it is not amateur golf.

Answer 2: What form of golf could be worse than a tournament full of cheats with fake handicaps trying to hustle honest players out of their entry fees?

Ding ding ding ding.

That is one of the better very short summaries.

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Not sure if this is in the topic zone but....when I was younger and working in the golf business, there would always be some some "unofficial" events that took place during the year. Some were stroke play events, some were two balls and even some scrambles. These were always with no handicap so the issue of sandbagging didn't enter the equation. You would throw down your $100.00, $50.00, or whatever and you played for the pot. I played in some events where the winning team/individual made in the thousands of dollars. Of course...this was all "off the books". A lot of gambling always took place in the area where I started in the golf business. I don't see much of that anymore (in my area). Used to be, there were always some type of $ games going on. Those were usually handicap events. 

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6 hours ago, Jay Chizza said:

It's amazing that you have devoted so many brain cells to my brain fart! Amazing.

Not really. @Pretzel Can rattle this stuff off the top of his head....😀

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Geez. 

The strained feelings that still crop up from time to time in my Association's little events are bad enough.  Top prize in anything we do equates to maybe $150 worth of pro shop credit.  Still, every year people point fingers (sometimes correctly), get in shouting matches, in some cases quit entirely and in one case engage in a fist fight.  

You put together some big handicap tournament with lots of money at stake, better have security at the ready. 

You can count me out.

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Sounds like an oxymoron: Big money + Amateur

 

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100 words or less please - Where is this big money coming from again and why would someone fund this?

 

 

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2 hours ago, iacas said:

No, there's no confusion on my end. Perhaps on yours.

Your reply, to summarize, was that the reactions you're reading here are just typical Internet knee-jerk reactions to say "no, no, no" to any new idea.

And my response says "that's not what's happening here."

People have given you very real reasons.

Because it would fail. For reasons given and some others.

There are not enough of you, and you would hate it after the first iteration when all the cheaters won.

Again, no. You can't just re-state the same thing and ask if it's "fair." People aren't posting here just because they "resist change." Hell, there is no change being talked about here - just an idea.

Yeah, maybe that was true 30 years ago. It's not all that accurate these days. You're basing a lot of what you seem to believe on massive, hard-wired, often faulty assumptions.

I couldn't care less.

If it was real, it'd still be a business, with costs, so it wouldn't even be zero sum game. The average contestant is losing money when they enter, because every dollar the organizers made would be a dollar that someone else gave them. Even if it was a zero sum game, the bottom 75% of the field would be losing money.

Why would I throw up all over my wedges when people play for less of their own money than they invested? I don't "throw up all over my wedges" because someone wins the lottery every week somewhere. Couldn't care less.

See, here, once again you're (badly) attempting to put my opinion in a certain bucket: "oh, he hates it because he's a PGA professional." Dude, you're so far off base.

I have a solution for you.

I'll bet you $50,000, straight up. I'll be an… 18 handicap. I'm the administrator of my GHIN eClub, so you can trust me on that one. If you don't want to play me, I'll find someone in my eClub to play you. They'll be an 18, too. Please let me know what score will get us disqualified, though, and I'll be sure to shoot or have "my guy" shoot one higher than that. You name the date and the course, and please bring your cash and leave it with my Italian friend, "Knuckles" for safe keeping while we play.

Have you ever heard of Kickstarter? (Before you take that far too seriously, I get that it's not exactly the same.)

So you're doing… what? The opposite?

Ding ding ding ding.

That is one of the better very short summaries.

Thank you for demonstrating expert status on a brain fart a stranger on the internet posted to a forum. I'm sorry the idea ruffled your feathers.  Try not to let the innocuous ideas that strangers post on the internet ruffle your feathers.  Those birdies you'll be making for the rest of your golfing life need those feathers.

Additionally, would you say it takes creativity to become a professional golfer and be out on tour?  I hear it on TV all the time, most recently about how creative Patrick Reed is around the greens after his recent win. If you agree that it requires creativity, then perhaps turn your thinking cap on in reverse, and play a brain game with yourself... Figure out HOW you can make something like this work... Not why it can't, won't, will never work.

How does a group of Rich Saudi's who start this prevent someone like you from posting an 18 handicap and robbing me?  Should this group of rich Saudi's insist that only tournament rounds count towards your handicap?  Would that force people to post honest scores and eliminate the "rounds with their buddies?"  

I'm able to think about this from all angles. Why this can't work, why it can work.  I can do so without any biases or emotions.  My creativity puts food on the table... 

That said, this exercise won't be meant for you to "change your mind." Rather, it will help you to control your emotions and biases and empower you to critically examine ideas strangers post on the internet from all angels..  That's a powerful mental skill to have.  
 

9 minutes ago, 3jacker said:

100 words or less please - Where is this big money coming from again and why would someone fund this?

Poker tournament format. $ comes form participants. 

 

 

Edited by Jay Chizza

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