My Swing (bweiss711)

[bweiss711]

I've been Playing Golf for: 20 years
My current handicap index or average score is: the last five 18-hole scores to go into my index calc are 95(C), 89, 92(C), 90, 91
My typical ball flight is: mostly straight with irons.  fade with everything else
The shot I hate or the "miss" I'm trying to reduce/eliminate is: severe push fade/slice with the driver

Quick Bio:  I've been playing since high school, but have never seriously attempted to improve until this past winter.  At the end of last season, my index was 24.5, and i had only broken 100 for 18 holes a few times.  This past winter and quarantine season, i bought a net and spent a lot of time trying to understand the golf swing, and work at it.  I think my scores above show that I have improved.  However, I still can't figure out the driver.  Its very hard for me to understand how to prevent what i'm doing wrong with the severe push fades.  I'm hoping a swing thread here will provide some solid tips or fundamental ideas that i can work on.  I'm thankful and excited for the opportunity a site like this provides to document that improvement.

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Videos: 

 

[Grizvok]

Initially, I'd say that any kind of practice area that is that cramped (your driver is brushing plants and pretty damn close to the fence) is likely going to cause compensations and reinforce destructive habits.

When hitting driver the ball should be lined up with your left heel and not in the middle (or close to) of your stance.

Left wrist looks extremely bowed at the top.

[pganapathy]

A down the line view of your swing would help if at all possible, but I am going to guess there is a bit of over the top movement in your swing, which is causing the fade

[bweiss711]

3 hours ago, Grizvok said:

Initially, I'd say that any kind of practice area that is that cramped (your driver is brushing plants and pretty damn close to the fence) is likely going to cause compensations and reinforce destructive habits.

When hitting driver the ball should be lined up with your left heel and not in the middle (or close to) of your stance.

Left wrist looks extremely bowed at the top.

Thanks for the feedback.  I know the practice area isn't ideal.  Normally, i am set up 45 degrees towards the camera position in those videos where there is more room to swing.  But then, I wouldn't be able to get a good camera angle.

I'll look to move the ball up in my stance.  I know that's best practice, but i usually find I make better contact when it is a little further back.  I assume that some other issue in my swing is causing that.

And yes, it certainly looks like you are right.  That wrist is bowed quite a bit.  This is something I worked to reverse in the winter.  My wrist actually used to flex at the top.  So I worked to stamp that out, and now it seems i'm extreme the other way.  I'll look to flatten that out.

 

2 hours ago, pganapathy said:

A down the line view of your swing would help if at all possible, but I am going to guess there is a bit of over the top movement in your swing, which is causing the fade

For sure.  Its just a matter of getting enough room for the camera angle.  I'm certainly aware that I must be cutting across the ball out to in for that ball flight.  Just need to figure out what the "feels" are to correct the swing path.  Thanks.

 

I'll look to change up the practice position and add some more camera angles.

[Grizvok]

2 hours ago, bweiss711 said:

Thanks for the feedback.  I know the practice area isn't ideal.  Normally, i am set up 45 degrees towards the camera position in those videos where there is more room to swing.  But then, I wouldn't be able to get a good camera angle.

I'll look to move the ball up in my stance.  I know that's best practice, but i usually find I make better contact when it is a little further back.  I assume that some other issue in my swing is causing that.

And yes, it certainly looks like you are right.  That wrist is bowed quite a bit.  This is something I worked to reverse in the winter.  My wrist actually used to flex at the top.  So I worked to stamp that out, and now it seems i'm extreme the other way.  I'll look to flatten that out.

 

For sure.  Its just a matter of getting enough room for the camera angle.  I'm certainly aware that I must be cutting across the ball out to in for that ball flight.  Just need to figure out what the "feels" are to correct the swing path.  Thanks.

 

I'll look to change up the practice position and add some more camera angles.

Theoretically, I'd say a slightly further back ball position is much more likely to promote or worsen a slice.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Grizvok

[bweiss711]

I worked on keeping my wrist flat in a practice session this week, and the results were mixed, but still had some good ones.  So i took it to my favorite neighborhood 9 hole course yesterday, and results were pretty bad.  Absolutely no improvement from previous rounds.  Just as inconsistent, and still severe misses to the right.

So luckily, Mark Crossfield on YouTube had a video yesterday about fixing your miss to the right.  For me, the feel that seemed to work was mostly in the backswing. Feel like the club is going up and around behind me, and then swing more in to out during the downswing.  The results today on the same course were much, much better.  I still missed right on 2 holes, but they were just fades.  Not severe push fade/slices. And I had 2 misses that were pulls to the left and one actually hooked. I haven't seen a hook off my driver in forever. 

Most importantly, the other 3 drives were pure beauties.  Straight as could be.  And actually led to 2 pars and a birdie.

(Golf, of course, is a funny game.  My short game and putting failed today, so i actually only scored 1 shot better from yesterday to today.)

Again, the feels that worked for me were feeling the club head up, back, and around in the backswing, and then swinging in to out from that position.

I'll post some more videos this week to see how much, if anything, things appear different.

Edited June 28, 2020 by bweiss711

[bweiss711]

Still having consistency issues off the tee.  But again, I think I have found something that hopefully can get me mentally in the right place to take a shot.  A couple times each of the last few rounds ive been able to calm myself down and just try to take as nice and smooth of a swing as possible.  As opposed to jerking my hips open and rushing my hands down over the top.  The drives have been playable at worst when I'm able to execute that. I've also had the 2 longest drives in my Game Golf database when everything lines up.  

I'm hoping to find some time to get some more video up in this thread shortly, but I also just want to use this thread as a diary of sorts.

Here's the strokes gained from my last round.  Pretty obvious what needs work:

 

[bweiss711]

Played 18 today.  Having success controlling my tempo on the tee (after the first 2 holes today, anyway).  Keeping most everything in play.  Misses now are well struck pulls. Pretty sure that is caused by the smooth tempo, but pulling down and across my body in the downswing.  Need to work on the in to out swing path with this tempo.  Problem today was duffing a bunch of approach shots.  Not sure that slow tempo works for those clubs.  

Going to try to play less and practice more this week.  Hope that will help.  Need to post some video.

Strokes gained today tells the story:

 

[bweiss711]

Went to the range today.  Really only took this one video.  I wouldn't say i used my time today very effectively.

However, this clip is pretty typical of the drive I'm trying to eliminate.

I'm also curious some tips on camera angle.  I have a small tripod which i had on the ground behind me.  Should the camera be closer to waist high?  Any tips would be helpful.  Thanks

 

[Grizvok]

I want to ask you a simple question. What exactly is your priority piece?

And yes, you definitely want the camera to be higher.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Grizvok

[bweiss711]

1 hour ago, Grizvok said:

I want to ask you a simple question. What exactly is your priority piece?

And yes, you definitely want the camera to be higher.

 

I really appreciate the response.  That is a simple question.  And I feel like I should have an equally simple answer.  Unfortunately, I don't.

 

I would say first, I'm hoping that maybe someone here can tell me what my priority piece should be.

 

Having said that, I think what I'm after is the ability to control my shot shape.  And i believe the first step to that is learning to swing in to out.  That was my intention when i went to the range today.  Swing in to out, get the ball started right, and have it draw back left.

My natural tendency is always having the ball move left to right.  No matter what, the ball moves left to right.  

When I miss left, Its because I pull the ball.  Usually well struck, but its a straight pull left, with a little fade back to the right.  I believe that is because I have an out to in swing, and in those misses, my club face is basically square to that path.

When I miss right, its because I start the ball straight enough, and it keeps going right, like the video above. I believe that is because in those instances, I have an out to in swing, and my face is open to the path, but square to the target.

When I hit the fairway, its usually because i start the ball over the left side of the fairway, and it fades back into the center of the fairway.  In those cases, I believe my swing path is out to in, but the the club face is more closed to the target, but not quite square to the path.

In all cases, my swing path is out to in, and the ball moves left to right.  I want to know which parts of my swing are the parts which don't allow me to actually swing in to out, despite trying to do so.

[billchao]

3 hours ago, bweiss711 said:

I'm also curious some tips on camera angle.  I have a small tripod which i had on the ground behind me.  Should the camera be closer to waist high?

https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/filming_your_swing

17 minutes ago, bweiss711 said:

I'm hoping that maybe someone here can tell me what my priority piece should be.

Swings from better angles will help.

[Grizvok]

37 minutes ago, bweiss711 said:

 

I really appreciate the response.  That is a simple question.  And I feel like I should have an equally simple answer.  Unfortunately, I don't.

 

I would say first, I'm hoping that maybe someone here can tell me what my priority piece should be.

 

Having said that, I think what I'm after is the ability to control my shot shape.  And i believe the first step to that is learning to swing in to out.  That was my intention when i went to the range today.  Swing in to out, get the ball started right, and have it draw back left.

My natural tendency is always having the ball move left to right.  No matter what, the ball moves left to right.  

When I miss left, Its because I pull the ball.  Usually well struck, but its a straight pull left, with a little fade back to the right.  I believe that is because I have an out to in swing, and in those misses, my club face is basically square to that path.

When I miss right, its because I start the ball straight enough, and it keeps going right, like the video above. I believe that is because in those instances, I have an out to in swing, and my face is open to the path, but square to the target.

When I hit the fairway, its usually because i start the ball over the left side of the fairway, and it fades back into the center of the fairway.  In those cases, I believe my swing path is out to in, but the the club face is more closed to the target, but not quite square to the path.

In all cases, my swing path is out to in, and the ball moves left to right.  I want to know which parts of my swing are the parts which don't allow me to actually swing in to out, despite trying to do so.

That's the problem I see with your improvement process so far and why I went ahead and asked that question. Should you examine your typical miss and factor it in to what you are working on? Sure, but don't focus on a specific result (ie I want to be a drawer of the ball) and change aspects of your swing to achieve that. "I want the ability to control my shot shape" is much too abstract. You need to pick an atomic easily described piece of your swing and make that your priority piece. I'd advise you to go look at some of the good My Swing threads like @saevel25 or @mvmac or @billchao and take note of the kind of things they are working on. Some of the stuff may go over your head (it goes over mine), but look at how incredibly specific it is.

We absolutely need better angles as @billchao suggests, but I'm supremely confident in saying that you have AT LEAST A FEW priority pieces that will be backswing focused to start out.

Edited July 17, 2020 by Grizvok

[saevel25]

1. You could be in a more relaxed posture You seem really tight and rigid. Round that back out a bit. 
2. you don't get much lift with your hands and I think the restricted arm movement causes you to lean towards the target at the top of the swing. You probably need to get more width in your swing (right elbow away from the body), and get the club to go up more. 

[bweiss711]

On 7/16/2020 at 8:20 PM, billchao said:

https://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/filming_your_swing

Swings from better angles will help.

 

On 7/16/2020 at 8:35 PM, Grizvok said:

That's the problem I see with your improvement process so far and why I went ahead and asked that question. Should you examine your typical miss and factor it in to what you are working on? Sure, but don't focus on a specific result (ie I want to be a drawer of the ball) and change aspects of your swing to achieve that. "I want the ability to control my shot shape" is much too abstract. You need to pick an atomic easily described piece of your swing and make that your priority piece. I'd advise you to go look at some of the good My Swing threads like @saevel25 or @mvmac or @billchao and take note of the kind of things they are working on. Some of the stuff may go over your head (it goes over mine), but look at how incredibly specific it is.

We absolutely need better angles as @billchao suggests, but I'm supremely confident in saying that you have AT LEAST A FEW priority pieces that will be backswing focused to start out.

 

On 7/16/2020 at 8:42 PM, saevel25 said:

1. You could be in a more relaxed posture You seem really tight and rigid. Round that back out a bit. 
2. you don't get much lift with your hands and I think the restricted arm movement causes you to lean towards the target at the top of the swing. You probably need to get more width in your swing (right elbow away from the body), and get the club to go up more. 

 

 

I went to the driving range and feel a lot better about the time I spent there.  Thanks to all of you for your input.  I hopefully have some better video. Although the camera was just a bit too close, its still an improvement from my first couple attempts.  I also went in with the idea of working on just one thing, and that was getting more width in my backswing.

 

I feel pretty good that I was able to actually do that, get more width in the backswing, or at least not have my right elbow tucked in against the top of my hipbone.  That coupled with the attempt to get the swing path in to out, and I actually saw some results.  A few of my "training" swings had some draw to it, and as I built up to full speed, my drives were a straight as ever.  I still had some pulls in there, but only one time did the ball fade strongly on me.

 

I'm certainly not saying my swing is cured.  Just I'm happy to see that going to the range with a purpose appeared to have produced some results from one day to the next.  Hopefully this is just the beginning, but i can't thank you guys enough for taking the time to chime in.

 

Going to play 9 holes tomorrow, and 18 the next day.  Would love to see this range session carry over to those tee boxes.

 

Videos to follow

Clip 1:  This is about as good of a drive as I can hit.

 

Clip 2:  Another drive, good result.

 

Clip 3: This one was a straight pull.  I think i got way too steep at the top of the backswing.  My left arm looks like its pointing down 6 inches in front of the ball

 

Clip 4: A caddy view.  I dont remember the result on this one.

 

Clip 5: Another caddy view.  To me, this one looks a lot better than the previous one.

 

Clip 6:  Just for reference, this is about as good as of a result as I can get with a 6 iron.

 

[iacas]

Look at your head movement. Consider how your setup looks versus, say…

[bweiss711]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Look at your head movement. Consider how your setup looks versus, say…

 

Much appreciated.  I like this tip, because its easy enough to work on at home.  Rack up that 5 minutes daily practice streak!  Thank you.

I also noticed in the videos, especially the caddy ones, how much my head was moving around.  That has to be affecting the consistency of my strikes as well.  Much more difficult to hit a moving target.

[daSeth]

The Good - There is a lot to like about your swing. It's very athletic. There are aspects of your impact position that are much much better than your average 18 handicapper. Your head is behind the ball, your hands are in front, you have an excellent flat left wrist and combination bent right wrist. You also generate loads of club head speed. I'd guess you played some baseball in a past life?

The Bad - If you came from baseball in a past life, the bad stuff coming up is pretty common for former baseball players. A baseball swing requires dynamic movement to be able to adjust to the ball speed, location, movement etc... None of that is required in golf as the ball is just sitting there waiting to be struck. Your lower half is waaaaaay too active. In your backswing your left foot comes off the ground and your left leg rotates inward. As you start your downswing, the right foot is on tippy toes. In terms of your upper body, your head and torso are moving down through the backswing and up as you are coming through the ball. You're just never going to hit the ball consistently with this much going on.

First order of business, your lower body needs to match the static nature of a sitting golf ball as opposed to the dynamic nature of a moving baseball. Hit the range and keep both feet fully on the ground during the backswing and downswing (yeah, I know, it's gonna feel really weird and very un-athletic). This will require less weight on your toes and more on your heels. Those heels are not going to stay on the ground without some pressure/friction. You are only allowed to lift your back foot AFTER striking the ball. Try to keep your lower body much more quiet in general. Think of your lower body as a solid stable platform that your upper body simply rotates on/around. For reference, check out how little is going on with Tiger's lower body in his back swing (compare side by side to yourself). In the downswing, just a bump forward to his front side. Work on steady head and steady spine angle from start of backswing until contact. If anything, your head is only allowed to go down a bit through impact.

Secondarily, and less important, backswing is very flat and downswing a little over the top producing the fade. After you fix the stuff above, do some mirror work to line things up a little better.

The good news, there is absolutely no reason you can't play some really good golf. Dramatic improvement is in the cards. Won't surprise me a bit if you are back in a year as a 5 handicap. With your impact position/hands, there is absolutely no reason you can't consistently hit really good golf shots, shot after shot after shot.

P.S. Don't let anyone tell you your wrist is too bowed at the top, pros hit from this position fine.