Caddie "Error" in US Am Match Play - Match Lost

[Vinsk]

5 minutes ago, StuM said:

I am trying to better understand the rules so do not shoot me if I have this totally wrong.....Below is from Rule 12.b on the USGA  Website 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=12

Rule 12.2 Playing the ball in the bunker:

b. Restrictions on Touching Sand in Bunker

(1) When Touching Sand Results in Penalty. Before making a stroke at a ball in a bunker, a player must not:

• Deliberately touch sand in the bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the next stroke, or

 

Doesn't the last part of the sentence "....to test the condition...." add intent to the rule?  What if the caddie deliberately touched the sand but not to learn information for the next stroke?  I realize there is the removal of loose impediments but that is covered in section 12.2(a) and this is from section 12.2(b).  

Please understand, I am not sure why he would have touched the sand other than to gain information but doesn't the rule allow for an exception?  

I think this rule is quite fair and allows for minimal interpretation. It protects the very rare case where a caddie would touch the sand which should be never. I can’t imagine why a caddie would ever touch the sand prior to a shot. Absolutely ignorant move and then lie about it.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Vinsk

[Big C]

2 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

Does anybody have video of him “lying?”  I’m only asking because I couldn’t quite hear him when he was talking to the rules official.  He was animated and obviously making an argument but I never actually heard him say he didn’t touch the sand.  I also didn’t watch it a second time because the whole thing was so painful.  My point being, there’s a big difference between not automatically accepting a penalty for his player by describing his side of the story and lying.

One instance (I think) is around 20:58 of the linked video. The audio is a bit muffled due to wind, but it sounds like he said "I didn't touch it."

[Golfingdad]

6 minutes ago, Big C said:

One instance (I think) is around 20:58 of the linked video. The audio is a bit muffled due to wind, but it sounds like he said "I didn't touch it."

Thanks!

[iacas]

50 minutes ago, criley4way said:

There is no spirit to this rule. it is one of the black and white rules. If you or your caddie touches the bunker before the shot you violated the rule.

There is no intent in this rule. But yes, this is clearly not the reason for the rule. the rule is there to prevent someone from gaining an advantage. But the way the rule is written there is no intent or advantage to rule on

There are no spirits to any rules.

He gained an advantage so that’sa moot point.

12 minutes ago, StuM said:

I am trying to better understand the rules so do not shoot me if I have this totally wrong.....Below is from Rule 12.2(b) on the USGA  Website 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=12

Rule 12.2 Playing the ball in the bunker:

b. Restrictions on Touching Sand in Bunker

 

(1) When Touching Sand Results in Penalty. Before making a stroke at a ball in a bunker, a player must not:

• Deliberately touch sand in the bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the next stroke, or

 

Doesn't the last part of the sentence "....to test the condition...." add intent to the rule?  What if the caddie deliberately touched the sand but not to learn information for the next stroke?  I realize there is the removal of loose impediments but that is covered in section 12.2(a) and this is from section 12.2(b).  

Please understand, I am not sure why he would have touched the sand other than to gain information but doesn't the rule allow for an exception?

Why touch the sand? To test the condition.

[jamo]

3 hours ago, StuM said:

I am trying to better understand the rules so do not shoot me if I have this totally wrong.....Below is from Rule 12.2(b) on the USGA  Website 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=12

Rule 12.2 Playing the ball in the bunker:

b. Restrictions on Touching Sand in Bunker

 

(1) When Touching Sand Results in Penalty. Before making a stroke at a ball in a bunker, a player must not:

• Deliberately touch sand in the bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the next stroke, or

 

Doesn't the last part of the sentence "....to test the condition...." add intent to the rule?  What if the caddie deliberately touched the sand but not to learn information for the next stroke?  I realize there is the removal of loose impediments but that is covered in section 12.2(a) and this is from section 12.2(b).  

Please understand, I am not sure why he would have touched the sand other than to gain information but doesn't the rule allow for an exception?  

 

One of the announcers was saying that the rule does allow some old for intent, but it sounded like at one point the caddy said something about trying to figure out if it was a rock, or rock hard, or something.

I think it's pretty clear what happened is that the bunkers look like they had some hard packed area, and he was touching them to see how firm they were. Then tried to spin up some lie about it, even though his own lie indicated that he was testing the sand for information. 

[saevel25]

I could understand if he was seeing if there was any loose impediments. It wasn't even close to where the ball was at. I am not sure that a caddie can do this. 

Quote

a. Removing Loose Impediments and Movable Obstructions

Before playing a ball in a bunker, a player may remove loose impediments under Rule 15.1 and movable obstructions under Rule 15.2.

This includes any reasonable touching or movement of the sand in the bunker that happens while doing so.

So, yea... No way the caddie had any good explanation for his actions. 

 

[Big C]

Postscript to this unfortunate incident: Pinto's opponent Tyler Strafaci won his next 3 matches - including a comeback from 5-down in the championship match yesterday - to win the 2020 US Am.

Golf.com story

As quoted in the above story, Strafaci said after the Pinto ruling: "...I feel really bad for him. I'm gonna make it worth something. I'm gonna go out tomorrow and win my match and try to keep moving."

And that's just what he did. Congrats to Strafaci.

[iacas]

Strafaci was probably beating Pinto anyway I think.

But you never know.

[RFKFREAK]

On 8/14/2020 at 4:50 PM, criley4way said:

There is no spirit to this rule. it is one of the black and white rules. If you or your caddie touches the bunker before the shot you violated the rule.

There is no intent in this rule. But yes, this is clearly not the reason for the rule. the rule is there to prevent someone from gaining an advantage. But the way the rule is written there is no intent or advantage to rule on

Well, that was my point - when you make a rule wherein you leave it vague enough so as to leave it open for interpretation which may include what the intent was in the making of the rule, you potentially open up a can of worms.