What Constitutes Slow Play?

[iacas]

8 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

Not sure you or your expert can say golfers are just "a tiny part of pace of play."

Well, you're really not talking from an informed position at this point, since you haven't read the book and since you're not Bill Yates.

And I'm aware of the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority" but in this case it's not entirely a matter of opinion. In fact, it's closer to fact on this, as you might learn if you read the book or had even a somewhat open mind.

8 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

Then with that logic… this thread should not be talking about any measures that golfers should be doing to speed up their shot time…

We're not in charge of golf courses, so we can talk about the parts that we control, despite them having a small impact. (Owing not just to their small impact in general, but also their very non wide-spread acceptance and implementation.)

8 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

FYI: I did google J1Q and it showed nothing remotely related. Try it. 

The second result for me was a link to this. It's not a super popular acronym but others knew it (which is why you got an answer up above).

And, you're welcome for helping you learn something new today. 😄

[jsgolfer]

8 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

Golfers are "a tiny part" of pace of play? 

Not sure you or your expert can say golfers are just " a tiny part of pace of play." I read your thread post "Out of Time" Bill Yates. I don't agree that golfers are a tiny part in pace of play. Then with that logic, the Pro tours, USGA, college golf, junior golf, and this thread should not be talking about any measures that golfers should be doing to speed up their shot time, or other time savings because it is just a "tiny part in pace of play".  Good luck with that. 😂

 

FYI: I did google J1Q and it showed nothing remotely related. Try it. 

 

Seriously?  Did you read the book? If not, you need to read the book.  Bill Yates spent countless days at a lot of golf courses and watched and timed a lot of play and poured over tons of data to come up with his conclusions. And I read the book, and they make a lot of sense to me. 

And what data do you have to support your theory? All of the higher level events, are a different animal then play at the local private or muni track. And no one is saying that players shouldn't speed up their pre-shot routine, but there are a lot of other things that contribute to slow play, that aren't attributed to the players. 

And the PGA tour does look at other things than just player speed, such as course set up as a big pace of play issue. 

 

[iacas]

58 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

Seriously?  Did you read the book? If not, you need to read the book.  Bill Yates spent countless days at a lot of golf courses and watched and timed a lot of play and poured over tons of data to come up with his conclusions. And I read the book, and they make a lot of sense to me.

Weird. Two people who read the book and were brought to a new understanding based on it. Two people who didn't just rely on what they think is true, but were open to seeing things from a different perspective and learning and growing a little.

Weird.

[jsgolfer]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

Weird. Two people who read the book and were brought to a new understanding based on it. Two people who didn't just rely on what they think is true, but were open to seeing things from a different perspective and learning and growing a little.

Weird.

Kind of like the "feel ain't real"

[Ty_Webb]

5 minutes ago, jsgolfer said:

Kind of like the "feel ain't real"

Funnily enough feel is kind of important in my mind when we talk about pace of play. If the course is long and has long walks between greens and tees and sets it at cart path only or whatever - things that make it slow. Those things make it slow for everyone, so they don't make it feel slow. It just means that you spend a long time playing. What's frustrating is watching a group spend five minutes putting. That feels like a long time. That's a function of the players, not the course.

Tee time gapping is one that, when too short, results in the feel of slow play and is really the big one. I feel like (ha) the other course related issues are what drive the number of minutes it takes to play a round, not whether it feels fast or slow on the day. That is tee-time gaps and player related. That's my takeaway anyway

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

Funnily enough feel is kind of important in my mind when we talk about pace of play. If the course is long and has long walks between greens and tees and sets it at cart path only or whatever - things that make it slow.

The book talks about that kind of stuff quite a bit.

Pace isn't just the total time, it's how many times you end up waiting. A 3.5 hour round can be more aggravating than a 4 hour round or even a 4.5 hour round.

[DaveP043]

10 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

Golfers are "a tiny part" of pace of play? 

Not sure you or your expert can say golfers are just " a tiny part of pace of play." I read your thread post "Out of Time" Bill Yates. I don't agree that golfers are a tiny part in pace of play. Then with that logic, the Pro tours, USGA, college golf, junior golf, and this thread should not be talking about any measures that golfers should be doing to speed up their shot time, or other time savings because it is just a "tiny part in pace of play".  Good luck with that. 😂

We (players, management, rules committees, anyone else) have little or no choice about most of the factors involved, course set up, design, etc.  One thing we CAN influence is player behavior, so that's where efforts are made.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The book talks about that kind of stuff quite a bit.

Pace isn't just the total time, it's how many times you end up waiting. A 3.5 hour round can be more aggravating than a 4 hour round or even a 4.5 hour round.

I know "examples" aren't very valuable, but here goes.  A few years ago I was in Scotland, playing at Royal Dornoch.  This was near the end of the trip, so we were pretty acclimatized to the normal pace of play.  We were the first "visitor" group out at 10:00, and finished in a moderate amount under 4 hours.  After checking with a pro shop, we made a tee time to play again at 4:00, and a dinner reservation at 8:00, and had a nice lunch  After all, we figured, we'd be done in plenty of time to change shoes and have a beer before sitting down to dinner, golf never takes 4 hours here.  Well due to some visitors ahead of us (not that it mattered, but Italians), and it took FOUR WHOLE HOURS to play!  We were aghast!  Of course, if we were playing at home we'd have been really pleased to finish in four hours, but that day it felt like an eternity.

[klineka]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

The book talks about that kind of stuff quite a bit.

Pace isn't just the total time, it's how many times you end up waiting. A 3.5 hour round can be more aggravating than a 4 hour round or even a 4.5 hour round.

Yep. Plenty of times my normal group and I have felt like a round is taking forever with us having to wait on multiple tee boxes but then we finish the round and it was either right at or just under 4 hours. 

Then other times we haven't waited at all and check the watch when the round is done and it was a 4:15 round or something.

[CrashTestDummy]

3 hours ago, jsgolfer said:

Seriously?  Did you read the book? If not, you need to read the book.  Bill Yates spent countless days at a lot of golf courses and watched and timed a lot of play and poured over tons of data to come up with his conclusions. And I read the book, and they make a lot of sense to me. 

And what data do you have to support your theory? All of the higher level events, are a different animal then play at the local private or muni track. And no one is saying that players shouldn't speed up their pre-shot routine, but there are a lot of other things that contribute to slow play, that aren't attributed to the players. 

And the PGA tour does look at other things than just player speed, such as course set up as a big pace of play issue. 

 

 

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Weird. Two people who read the book and were brought to a new understanding based on it. Two people who didn't just rely on what they think is true, but were open to seeing things from a different perspective and learning and growing a little.

Weird.

 

2 hours ago, jsgolfer said:

Kind of like the "feel ain't real"

 

25 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

We (players, management, rules committees, anyone else) have little or no choice about most of the factors involved, course set up, design, etc.  One thing we CAN influence is player behavior, so that's where efforts are made.

I know "examples" aren't very valuable, but here goes.  A few years ago I was in Scotland, playing at Royal Dornoch.  This was near the end of the trip, so we were pretty acclimatized to the normal pace of play.  We were the first "visitor" group out at 10:00, and finished in a moderate amount under 4 hours.  After checking with a pro shop, we made a tee time to play again at 4:00, and a dinner reservation at 8:00, and had a nice lunch  After all, we figured, we'd be done in plenty of time to change shoes and have a beer before sitting down to dinner, golf never takes 4 hours here.  Well due to some visitors ahead of us (not that it mattered, but Italians), and it took FOUR WHOLE HOURS to play!  We were aghast!  Of course, if we were playing at home we'd have been really pleased to finish in four hours, but that day it felt like an eternity.

 

First of all, you sent a link to a book that is "unavailable" so it can't be read. Next, I read your Out of Time Bill Yates thread and you paraphrased many of the main points of Bill Yates book and yes those factors slow play, but every course has a standard round time. Some courses may be 4 hours, some may be 5 hours. It is totally dependent on the course difficulty, course design, and course conditions. Yes, we cannot change those. Then why do guys you keep constantly talking about those other factors when they do not help the pace pace of play for this thread and total downplay or dismiss talking about what individual players can do to speed up play? This is a thread on "slow play" and improving it. 

 

So, you say I am just "feeling" what I think? That is comical. I worked on a golf course and marshalled when I worked there. We had a saying, "A group is as slow as the slowest player and the course is as slow as the slowest group." When you marshal a course, you can easily see who is slowing up the course and which individuals are the slowest of groups.  I suggest you marshal on a golf course to gain some real life experience with it rather than how you "feel" about some theories in a book. 

 

So what can players do individually?  Taking more strokes does take more time, so those players should try to cut their shot time down. Simple. 

[DaveP043]

16 minutes ago, CrashTestDummy said:

First of all, you sent a link to a book that is "unavailable" so it can't be read.

OUT OF TIME: The Golf Guru shows how to have the ultimate golf experience now!

---

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for OUT OF TIME: The Golf Guru shows how to have the ultimate golf experience now! at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

If you're interested in learning.  Also:

https://www.usga.org/pace-of-play-resource-center.html

 

17 minutes ago, CrashTestDummy said:

I suggest you marshal on a golf course to gain some real life experience with it rather than how you "feel" about some theories in a book. 

I volunteer as a Rules Official, and a big part of our responsibility is enforcing pace of play guidelines.  There are a number of things that clearly impact pace of play, including course design and set-up, and tee time intervals, individual players are only a part of the issue, but the only one we can really impact.  

[CrashTestDummy]

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

OUT OF TIME: The Golf Guru shows how to have the ultimate golf experience now!

---

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for OUT OF TIME: The Golf Guru shows how to have the ultimate golf experience now! at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

If you're interested in learning.  Also:

https://www.usga.org/pace-of-play-resource-center.html

 

I volunteer as a Rules Official, and a big part of our responsibility is enforcing pace of play guidelines.  There are a number of things that clearly impact pace of play, including course design and set-up, and tee time intervals, individual players are only a part of the issue, but the only one we can really impact.  

Of course course difficulty, design, and setup slows play. Yes, those course metrics are out of our control.  So, why do you guys keep constantly talking about course metrics out of our control? The thread was originally made to discuss what individuals can do to speed up pace of play. Not how to get companies to change their course design and setup or how we can control the weather to speed up play. 

[snapfade]

[DaveP043]

On 1/29/2024 at 11:26 PM, CrashTestDummy said:

4:15 minutes is very fast pace if 4 players are walking. If using carts, I can see 4:15 minutes being ok. Just a steady good pace (not too slow, not too fast) for around 4.5 to 5 hour round seems to be good.   There is usually plenty of time to read your shots waiting for other players because you can do that standing there. However, on the green you can't read your putts much until it is your turn. I like to read my putts. 

That was your very first post in this thread, as far as I could tell.  Others have disputed that, saying 3:30 is reasonable on some courses, 4:00 is thought to be too slow.  Much of that relates to golfing culture and course layout.  The conversation evolved to consideration of multiple factors beyond the player, all of which clearly DO have an impact.  Well-researched publications are referenced which indicate that the players' contribution to slow play is a relatively minor factor, which you have disagreed with vehemently.  

2 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

Of course course difficulty, design, and setup slows play. Yes, those course metrics are out of our control.  So, why do you guys keep constantly talking about course metrics out of our control? The thread was originally made to discuss what individuals can do to speed up pace of play. Not how to get companies to change their course design and setup or how we can control the weather to speed up play. 

And here we are, having gone full circle back to the players' contribution to the issue.  Believe it or not, individual players CAN impact some of those issues, by giving feedback to management.  Management can change certain things around course set-up and tee time intervals to improve pace of play, even if its the same pokey players taking 4:15 or longer to play.  

[iacas]

3 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

Some courses may be 4 hours, some may be 5 hours.

Has anyone disputed this? Or the simple math you continue to bring up?

3 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

It is totally dependent on the course difficulty, course design, and course conditions.

Yep. And that "time par" is where Bill Yates is an expert.

3 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

So, you say I am just "feeling" what I think? That is comical.

Same way that you "feel" etiquette is worse now than in the past. I think you're looking back with rose-colored glasses.

3 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

I worked on a golf course and marshalled when I worked there.

Your anecdata is just that: anecdotes that are yours. Giving them too much weight is folly. I realize that's all you've GOT to give weight to, but other people are going to give weight to their experiences, which seem to occasionally conflict with yours.

3 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

I suggest you marshal on a golf course to gain some real life experience with it rather than how you "feel" about some theories in a book.

a) they're not really "theories"
b) You'd do better to not assume things (like what jobs people have done, etc.).

3 hours ago, CrashTestDummy said:

So what can players do individually?  Taking more strokes does take more time, so those players should try to cut their shot time down. Simple. 

For frick's sake, nobody has denied that simple math, and that seems to be your only fricking contribution to the topic.

Read the room. Or at least the replies to you… 😛 

[Darkfrog]

Based on my experience tee time spacing and course design/setup are the huge influences on pace of play. I have read Bill Yates, and I think he covers both of these things.

Course design/setup: My home course is known for being notoriously slow, which is why my group always gets the first tee time of the day. The issue with the course is that it is narrow, surrounded by dense forest, and has many extreme slopes. This makes it unforgiving for offline shots; every hole has potential for lost ball in the forest, and this is exacerbated by the slopes. Often a tee shot that lands in the middle of a fairway will roll into completely unexpected places. In the rainy season due to soil conditions plugged balls are common for good shots (drivers, fairway woods and hybrids often plug in the softest spots). There are also a handful of semi-blind tee shots where you can't see the landing area. Even better players often need to search for a ball. We typically finish in 3:45-4:15 depending on conditions, and we are all speedy players, of varying ability; 10-25 handicap.

Tee time spacing: I recently played at a course that spaced tee times by 8 minutes. I think my group was maybe the 10th tee time of the day, and the course was already 20+ minutes behind at when we teed off. I hate to think how backed up the first tee was for midday tee times. The round ended up taking nearly 6 hours, because the course was completely jammed in front of us. This is entirely out of the players hands.

 

 

[Bucki1968]

One of the best moves our clubs have ever made was to space out tee times to 10 minutes. One of the worst moves is sticking the pins in really ridiculous pin positions that will slow play with all the three putts. For some reason one of the games likes the pins put in tough positions in order to limit the amount of birdies. For the life of me, I can't figure out why?

[StuM]

Slow Play crept into the LIV thread but I felt my response was more appropriate here.  My idea to combat slow play is as follows.

1. Each course needs to set a target time which may be different based on length of course, terrain, # of players in each group, etc.  Lets assume a course sets a 4 hr 13 min target time.
2. They then break that into 3 hole segments.  For my example lets assume a simple 42 minute average for every 3 holes but how the time gets allocated would be based on the character of the 3 holes.  Back-2-back Par-5's may allow more time for that segment while back to back shorter holes may be a little less.
3. Each hole can have a time posted at the green so you know where you stand as you approach & exit the green.
4. Your group is penalized for slow play if BOTH the following occur:
   1. You are past the allotted time when your group walks off of hole #3, #6, #9, #12, #15 and #18
   2. At least 1 player in your group is not at an approach shot with club in hand and ready to hit on the 3rd hole when the group ahead of you walks off the green.
      1. On a Par-3 you need to be on the tee box ready to hit before the last player in the group ahead walks off the green.
      2. On a Par-4 & 5 you need to be at your ball ready to hit to the green when the group ahead walks off the green.
         1. This could be a sticking point on a Par-5 if trying to go for it in 2.  Might need to be fleshed out a little more.
      3. Basically I am trying to say "You need to stay in position" as Erik has often says.

With this, the first group out will never be waiting for anybody so they need to complete each 3 hole segment in the allotted time or penalties are automatic. (Unless a shotgun start in which case there would be a group in front of you.)

The penalties could be 6 strokes if you miss all 6 segments.  Pity the group that falls behind in the 1st segment.  They will need to pick up the pace real quick or be total screwed.

Might need to "Re-calibrate" each 3 hole segment if you are waiting on the group ahead of you so their "Rush" to get back on schedule does result in a gap that then causes you to get penalized.  I see this as a complication.

What will be unpopular is penalizing the whole group because 1 player is a problem.  Since the whole group is at risk then they will need to supervise the others & cooperate to prevent a group penalty.  Maybe they need to shift to "Ready Golf" to get back on track.  One issue would be a player purposely golfing slow to screw someone in the group.  For example, Player A knows they will miss the cut and they really hate Player B so they intentionally slow down to get the penalty thus causing Player B to miss the cut. I say "Watch Out" to Player A if they get a rep for doing that, I could see a few fights in the locker room.

This takes out the "Time over the ball" vs "Time walking to the ball" concerns.  The time is simply how long it takes to get through 3 holes.

I'm sure there are problems with this idea, but what think you?

 

 

[Ty_Webb]

35 minutes ago, StuM said:

Slow Play crept into the LIV thread but I felt my response was more appropriate here.  My idea to combat slow play is as follows.

1. Each course needs to set a target time which may be different based on length of course, terrain, # of players in each group, etc.  Lets assume a course sets a 4 hr 13 min target time.
2. They then break that into 3 hole segments.  For my example lets assume a simple 42 minute average for every 3 holes but how the time gets allocated would be based on the character of the 3 holes.  Back-2-back Par-5's may allow more time for that segment while back to back shorter holes may be a little less.
3. Each hole can have a time posted at the green so you know where you stand as you approach & exit the green.
4. Your group is penalized for slow play if BOTH the following occur:
   1. You are past the allotted time when your group walks off of hole #3, #6, #9, #12, #15 and #18
   2. At least 1 player in your group is not at an approach shot with club in hand and ready to hit on the 3rd hole when the group ahead of you walks off the green.
      1. On a Par-3 you need to be on the tee box ready to hit before the last player in the group ahead walks off the green.
      2. On a Par-4 & 5 you need to be at your ball ready to hit to the green when the group ahead walks off the green.
         1. This could be a sticking point on a Par-5 if trying to go for it in 2.  Might need to be fleshed out a little more.
      3. Basically I am trying to say "You need to stay in position" as Erik has often says.

With this, the first group out will never be waiting for anybody so they need to complete each 3 hole segment in the allotted time or penalties are automatic. (Unless a shotgun start in which case there would be a group in front of you.)

The penalties could be 6 strokes if you miss all 6 segments.  Pity the group that falls behind in the 1st segment.  They will need to pick up the pace real quick or be total screwed.

Might need to "Re-calibrate" each 3 hole segment if you are waiting on the group ahead of you so their "Rush" to get back on schedule does result in a gap that then causes you to get penalized.  I see this as a complication.

What will be unpopular is penalizing the whole group because 1 player is a problem.  Since the whole group is at risk then they will need to supervise the others & cooperate to prevent a group penalty.  Maybe they need to shift to "Ready Golf" to get back on track.  One issue would be a player purposely golfing slow to screw someone in the group.  For example, Player A knows they will miss the cut and they really hate Player B so they intentionally slow down to get the penalty thus causing Player B to miss the cut. I say "Watch Out" to Player A if they get a rep for doing that, I could see a few fights in the locker room.

This takes out the "Time over the ball" vs "Time walking to the ball" concerns.  The time is simply how long it takes to get through 3 holes.

I'm sure there are problems with this idea, but what think you?

 

 

Couple of things. One - relying on the threat of fights in the locker room to police it doesn't seem ideal. Two - one issue with this, which on the face of it I don't hate is that the way golfers move around the course is a bit of a concertina effect. Someone somewhere loses a ball. They spend 2.5 minutes looking for it and find it. That's 2.5 minutes that they've lost. So now they have a gap in front of them. Behind them is tightening up and people are waiting. Then the group that spent the 2.5 minutes can play more freely without waiting and they catch up again. The group behind them that was waiting now has the gap in front of them. If at that moment they also lose a ball and spend 2.5 minutes looking before finding it, they're now 5 minutes behind and haven't done anything wrong. Everyone behind them is also 5 minutes behind. 

Now let's assume that hole 6 is a short par 4. The group that's 5 minutes behind hits their drives and gets up to them just in time so they have a club in hand before the group ahead clears the green, so no penalty. The group behind them are standing on the tee waiting for a couple of minutes while they all play their shots. They all hit really good approach shots to tap in range (unlikely I know, but not impossible). So now the group on the tee has to hit four drives, cover 250 yards plus (potentially) and grab a club while the group in front has to walk 30 yards and hit four tap-ins. That group on the tee is now late because of what happened in front of them and can't get to the fairway fast enough to avoid the penalty. That's going to result in a lot of shouting. 

I think a better way to do it is to have a time period for the first group out to hit (this will need to be faster than later groups because they're never having to wait on anyone). One bad time is okay, but two bad times in a row is not, so if they lose a ball on hole 3 or 6 or whatever, then they're not penalized, but are then going to have to make up that time, but at least have three holes to do it in. Then for each subsequent group, you have the more out of slightly longer than the group ahead of them (I'm thinking maybe 20 seconds per 3 hole stretch) and a certain amount of time after the group ahead. Example:

Taking your 4h13m (which is too long for the first group out IMO unless it's very long, difficult or there's a lot of land between greens and tees, let's say first group gets 12 minutes a hole so their times need to be 36m; 1h12m; 1h48m; 2h24m; 3h; 3h36m.

Next group needs to be 36m20s; 1h12m40s; 1h49m; 2h25m20s; 3h1m40s; 3h38m.

Next group 36m40s; 1h13m20s; 1h50m; 2h26m40s; 3h3m20s; 3h40m.

Then 37m; 1h14m; 1h51m; 2h28m; 3h5m; 3h42m

Group 20 would get 4h16m and so on.

If group 1 passes through hole 6 after 1h10m, then group 2 would have until 1h13m20s. If group 1 passes through hole 6 after 1h14m, then group 2 would have 1h14m. 

Massively overcomplicated of course. Perhaps a better alternative would be snipers in the trees who shoot players who take over 3 minutes looking for a ball, don't rake a bunker or don't replace a divot (or at least try to). First offense could be a winging - perhaps the shoulder. Second offense - headshot. Too harsh?