Elevation Change Distance Adjustment: Yardage Book Versus Rangefinder (Or Equivalent Device)

[Vinsk]

31 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

It's not about knowing the elevation changes, or distances, or elevation-adjusted distances. Let me see if I can come up with a better way to phrase my question.

Right. You can’t obtain information from artificial methods/certain technology such as slope finding range finders during a scoring round. 

[Roblar]

Apologies in advance: this is an "I have no clue about this (the rules or rationale behind them), but it's the internet, so I'll type something anyway." post.

 

Would the following analogy work for you?

If you're taking a class, and the teacher says you can bring an index card with all the notes you want on it, you could prep, study, prioritize, and jot down what you think will help.  In the test, you might still get a question that you didn't anticipate or prepare for.  You don't get to go back to the books or google to solve it.  ...you only have the prep-work you did and your index card (which, perhaps, you just copied from a classmate instead of prepping yourself).  You are rewarded for your preparation, study, and anticipation of questions. And you are not allowed to fix your lack of prep by going to the books or outside sources during the test.

 

???

</"I have no clue about this (the rules or rationale behind them), but it's the internet, so I'll type something anyway.">

 

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Darkfrog said:

The question in my mind that I am trying to get insight on hasn't completely been answered, but maybe I am asking the wrong question, or asking in the wrong way, or there isn't really an answer, or possibly I'm just an idiot.

It's not about knowing the elevation changes, or distances, or elevation-adjusted distances. Let me see if I can come up with a better way to phrase my question.

We understand the question you’re asking and it’s been answered now a few times. @Roblar did it too.

I give my students printouts of their lessons with notes. Those are also legal to read and look at during a round because they were produced before the round.

[boogielicious]

6 hours ago, Roblar said:

Apologies in advance: this is an "I have no clue about this (the rules or rationale behind them), but it's the internet, so I'll type something anyway." post.

 

Would the following analogy work for you?

If you're taking a class, and the teacher says you can bring an index card with all the notes you want on it, you could prep, study, prioritize, and jot down what you think will help.  In the test, you might still get a question that you didn't anticipate or prepare for.  You don't get to go back to the books or google to solve it.  ...you only have the prep-work you did and your index card (which, perhaps, you just copied from a classmate instead of prepping yourself).  You are rewarded for your preparation, study, and anticipation of questions. And you are not allowed to fix your lack of prep by going to the books or outside sources during the test.

 

???

</"I have no clue about this (the rules or rationale behind them), but it's the internet, so I'll type something anyway.">

 

This pretty much sums it up. This is why they got rid of the prepared green books. Knowing how to club up or down for elevation changes is an important prep skill for a course.

[Bucki1968]

This thread encouraged me to find the yardage books I still have from some of the tour stops back in the 80's. I can't remember the guys name who used to make them but he would sell them to the caddies/players. I had to look and see if there were elevation notes. There are some that show the humps and false fronts but no numbers detailing how high the elevation actually is. I had a friend who played on the tour (still does on the Champions Tour) and a couple other buddies who were caddies who gave me some of these books. It's amazing how much detail this guy put into these books as well as some pretty funny comments (NFC=No Fuc8k1ng chance).

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, Bucki1968 said:

This thread encouraged me to find the yardage books I still have from some of the tour stops back in the 80's. I can't remember the guys name who used to make them but he would sell them to the caddies/players. I had to look and see if there were elevation notes. There are some that show the humps and false fronts but no numbers detailing how high the elevation actually is. I had a friend who played on the tour (still does on the Champions Tour) and a couple other buddies who were caddies who gave me some of these books. It's amazing how much detail this guy put into these books as well as some pretty funny comments (NFC=No Fuc8k1ng chance).

Wasn't he called Gorgeous George?  Or Gorjus George?  I have one of his books from the 1995 US Senior Open at Congressional.  

[Bucki1968]

8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Wasn't he called Gorgeous George?  Or Gorjus George?  I have one of his books from the 1995 US Senior Open at Congressional.  

Yes....maybe...I believe so but can't be 100% sure.

[Darkfrog]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

We understand the question you’re asking and it’s been answered now a few times. @Roblar did it too.

I give my students printouts of their lessons with notes. Those are also legal to read and look at during a round because they were produced before the round.

I promise I am not trying to come off as stubborn or anything. There has been lots of good information from @DaveP043 and I agree that @Roblar provided a good analogy of the concept for in round/not in round. I understand that before a round, information gathering, by any method, is allowed, and that information may be used in round, and once a player is in a round, there are restrictions on how information can be gathered and used.

I still don't have an answer for what I am trying to understand, and maybe I am going too deep into a philosophical rabbit hole of how information flows and transforms across the line of not in round/in round. Like @billchao said, I am certainly over thinking this. 

[iacas]

41 minutes ago, Darkfrog said:

I still don't have an answer for what I am trying to understand, and maybe I am going too deep into a philosophical rabbit hole of how information flows and transforms across the line of not in round/in round. Like @billchao said, I am certainly over thinking this. 

You’re making a distinction without a distinction. Or trying to.

Consider this:

• A caddie measures the elevation change on a hole.
• He tells a player before the round.
• He tells HIS player during the round.

Now, what if the caddie got the measurement from another person?

The point is… where does this line exist (except for in your mind)? The line exists re: use of equipment DURING the round. It’s a clear line.

If that still doesn’t answer it, and the previous answers don’t answer it, then one of two things is happening:

• You’re asking for a distinction to be made where one literally doesn’t exist.
• You’re focusing on one specific case when the Rules can’t really govern one specific case (someone could measure the elevation on Google Maps, or by holding a level up in the air on a ladder, or… or walking it, or measuring it with a level, or whatever).

[Darkfrog]

22 hours ago, iacas said:

• You’re asking for a distinction to be made where one literally doesn’t exist.
• You’re focusing on one specific case when the Rules can’t really govern one specific case

Maybe a little bit of both. I read the rule about 10 times last night, and I think I figured out why I am getting hung up, and maybe what I think the answer is. I'll try to write it up in a post later and see if it makes sense you guys.

[Hardspoon]

1 hour ago, Darkfrog said:

Maybe a little bit of both. I read the rule about 10 times last night, and I think I figured out why I am getting hung up, and maybe what I think the answer is. I'll try to write it up in a post later and see if it makes sense you guys.

I think I understand what you're asking.  In simple terms...what is the philosophical difference (beyond simply enforceability) between doing something before a round or during it that would lead to the second one being prohibited?

I think it comes down to what is actually part of playing the game of golf, and what it should "reward".

Golf has always rewarded preparation before a round: knowledge of the course you're going to play, knowledge of the pin positions, etc.  The restriction on the info that can be placed in yardage books was intended to LIMIT this, but the idea that golfers can prepare for the challenge ahead of them has has always been (and should be) part of the game.

Allowing artificial devices to be used during the round is different.  That wouldn't reward preparation, it would reward access to technology that can measure conditions quickly enough to be used during the round.

Does that make sense (I've never thought about it before, either, just trying to maybe tackle it from a different angle more in line with the question you're asking)?

 

[Darkfrog]

2 minutes ago, Hardspoon said:

Does that make sense (I've never thought about it before, either, just trying to maybe tackle it from a different angle more in line with the question you're asking)?

Yes - your post more succinctly sums up what I was trying to reason out. I am going to try and write up my thoughts a little later, but more or less in line with what you've said.

[Darkfrog]

First off, thanks for the patience of the rules people here who have been trying to help me understand. I think I figured out what I was getting hung up on, and what I think the answer is. I'll have to reread the thread to see if some of what I realized had been alluded to before and I just wasn't seeing the right way.

Here's the rule (second bullet point left off intentionally since I don't think it applies):

Quote

A player may use equipment to help his or her play during a round, except that a player must not create a potential advantage by:

• Using equipment (other than a club or a ball) that artificially eliminates or reduces the need for a skill or judgment that is essential to the challenge of the game, or

And here's the definition of equipment, which my notes/yardage book are included in (I left out the second sentence about course care objects):

Quote

Anything used, worn, held or carried by the player or the player’s caddie.

In the examples of commonly used equipment, information gathered before the round is allowed (i.e. notes in a yardage book):

Quote

• Allowed.
  • Using information that was gathered before the round (such as playing information from previous rounds, swing tips or club recommendations), or

So elevation-adjusted distances from a slope-enabled rangefinder are not allowed during around. I was getting hung up on cycling between the rule (during a round equipment that artificially eliminates/reduces the need for skill/judgement that is essential to the game is not allowed) and the the example of allowed equipment (information gathered before around) says that elevation-adjusted distances from a slope-enabled rangefinder in my notes are allowed, and I was trying to determine why this didn't give me an advantage by eliminating/reducing...

I had two thoughts:

1. The information gathered before the round, specifically elevation-adjusted distances from slope-enabled rangefinder, does give an advantage by artificially eliminating/reducing...but that doesn't matter because it was obtained before the round. This didn't sit with my admittedly novice understanding of the rules, which at least to this point in my learning, all seem to have well thought out rationale for why the rule exists. I could be wrong and maybe there are aspects the rules that are much more arbitrary than I expect them to be.
2. The information gathered before the round, specifically elevation-adjusted distances from slope-enabled rangefinder, does not give an advantage by artificially eliminating/reducing...because even though the information and its origin device are not allowed in round, something about the before round gathering transforms the information. This "something" is what I was looking for.

I think @Hardspoon summarized this well. My thought is that by gathering information before the round, regardless of of the method, that information becomes inherent knowledge/experience to the golfer (e.g., the information from the artificial device is now owned by the player), so rather than artificially eliminating/reducing the need for a skill or judgement essential to the game, the player is now using their information. Or essentially reward the preparation/knowledge gathering.

Does this make any more sense?

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Darkfrog said:

I had two thoughts:

1. The information gathered before the round, specifically elevation-adjusted distances from slope-enabled rangefinder, does give an advantage by artificially eliminating/reducing...but that doesn't matter because it was obtained before the round. This didn't sit with my admittedly novice understanding of the rules, which at least to this point in my learning, all seem to have well thought out rationale for why the rule exists. I could be wrong and maybe there are aspects the rules that are much more arbitrary than I expect them to be.
2. The information gathered before the round, specifically elevation-adjusted distances from slope-enabled rangefinder, does not give an advantage by artificially eliminating/reducing...because even though the information and its origin device are not allowed in round, something about the before round gathering transforms the information. This "something" is what I was looking for.

I'm glad you've figured it out, but you're still drastically over-thinking this. I think you're getting hung up on the "equipment" stuff, but it's not really about that.

Put it another way: how can the rules makers govern what "information" you can obtain BEFORE a round?

• If a guy takes a lesson before his round, he can use the information from that lesson during his round. He cannot, however, call his coach up and get tips DURING a round.
• If a guy plays a tournament at his home course and knows where the hole locations will be, or are likely to be, he can take practice putts to those holes. He cannot, however, take practice putts before playing DURING his tournament round.
• You can measure your heart rate to see how your body responds to certain situations before a round, and use that to train or apply mental game tactics, etc. during a round, but you can't measure your heart rate DURING the actual round.
• You can chart the way the greens break with a digital level before the round, and look at that information (or remember it), but you can't take those measurements DURING the round.

1 minute ago, Darkfrog said:

I think @Hardspoon summarized this well. My thought is that by gathering information before the round, regardless of of the method, that information becomes inherent knowledge/experience to the golfer (e.g., the information from the artificial device is now owned by the player), so rather than artificially eliminating/reducing the need for a skill or judgement essential to the game, the player is now using their information. Or essentially reward the preparation/knowledge gathering.

Yes, that's what I felt others were telling you. But you seemed to be catching on the "equipment" side of things. Even though that part was, really, irrelevant.