Club Selection of the Tee and Shot Zones - Advice Please

[Hugh Jars]

Hi All.

Just looking for advice, thoughts on how to approach club selection off the tee in reference to my approximate shot zones for my driver v 3 wood v 5 wood, for a couple of holes where I am often in two minds about what club to take.

I understand and appreciate the concept of separation value, getting the ball closer to the hole, shot zones, buffer zones, shadings etc from LSW. My home course is quite long and very tree lined, and often being off the fairway results in having to chip out sideways or having no direct shot towards the pin. I also understand the value of learning to improve my shot making, but this is a long term work in progress for me. Below are two examples of holes at my course:

This par 4 hole is index one at my home course. The black shot zone represents my driver dispersion, red for my 3 wood and blue for my 5 wood. My 5 wood is easily my most confident and accurate club off the tee. If I'm in the trees on the right there is zero chance of having a direct shot to the green. Hitting the fairway with my 5 wood leaves me with about 200m for my approach. I do get 2 shots on this hole - how would you all recommend a 22 handicapper play it?

 

This next hole is a par 5. Index 12, so only 1 extra shot for me. Very thin. I am often not successful with my driver off the tee on this hole. Going left can be ok. But right is virtually always a chip out, often an unplayable, and sometimes a lost ball 3 off the tee. Behind the green you are dead. Table top green, roots and sand. Again, how would you recommend a 22 handicapper play it?

Thanks in advance. Another factor to consider are my "outliers". My occasional pull hooks/massive pushes. More prone the longer the club, but still possible with even my 5 wood. A duck hook with my 5 wood leaves me miles from anywhere.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Andy Capped

[Shindig]

1 hour ago, Andy Capped said:

 

This par 4 hole is index one at my home course. The black shot zone represents my driver dispersion, red for my 3 wood and blue for my 5 wood. My 5 wood is easily my most confident and accurate club off the tee. If I'm in the trees on the right there is zero chance of having a direct shot to the green. Hitting the fairway with my 5 wood leaves me with about 200m for my approach. I do get 2 shots on this hole - how would you all recommend a 22 handicapper play it?

 

If you are in the trees on the right, how far (if at all) can you advance your ball?  

It's the 1 hcp and you're a 22 index, so a 5 on this hole is a great score and a 6 isn't terrible.  That doesn't mean to use three full swings to get there, of course -- if you're like most 22 handicappers, asking you to put together three pretty-darn-good full swings in a row is not a high probability ask.  For me, for high handicap holes, I aim to get the closest to the green I can safely in two shots (they're always par-4s, at least for the courses I play regularly), with the idea that I have a nonzero chance of getting up and down and a pretty good chance to hit my third where a decent putter can generally get down in at most two ("decent putter" of course does not describe me).

But, if you're in the trees on the right (or, given the driver, the left), what's the closest to the green you can advance the next shot? 

Is there a two-stroke sequence that likely leaves you short of the green, with no chance of going into the greenside bunkers and minimal chance of going into the greenside trees?  Do we need to assume anything about your first shot to get this?

[Hugh Jars]

45 minutes ago, Shindig said:

If you are in the trees on the right, how far (if at all) can you advance your ball?  

It's the 1 hcp and you're a 22 index, so a 5 on this hole is a great score and a 6 isn't terrible.  That doesn't mean to use three full swings to get there, of course -- if you're like most 22 handicappers, asking you to put together three pretty-darn-good full swings in a row is not a high probability ask.  For me, for high handicap holes, I aim to get the closest to the green I can safely in two shots (they're always par-4s, at least for the courses I play regularly), with the idea that I have a nonzero chance of getting up and down and a pretty good chance to hit my third where a decent putter can generally get down in at most two ("decent putter" of course does not describe me).

But, if you're in the trees on the right (or, given the driver, the left), what's the closest to the green you can advance the next shot? 

Is there a two-stroke sequence that likavely leaves you short of the green, with no chance of going into the greenside bunkers and minimal chance of going into the greenside trees?  Do we need to assume anything about your first shot to get this?

If I go into the trees on the right, the probability of being able to advance the ball towards the hole is quite low. Approximately 2/5  chance. Those other times it is nearly always a chip out and possibly a lost ball/unplayable. Yesterday I took a risk and went driver and ended up right. Fortunately I had a clear lie and clearance to be able to hit my 9 iron over trees and back into the fairway to give me a 100m pitch on my next shot. With the bunker on the right, sometimes chipping out can even be difficult.

I've made par on this hole recently in a comp (4 points - net eagle!) by going 5 wood, then hitting a well struck 5 hybrid into the left greenside bunker then being very lucky with my bunker shot putting it next to the hole for a tap in. The bunker on the left is quite shallow. But there's a risk with using a long club for a second shot for me. I can spray them with a big push to the right.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Andy Capped

[onthehunt526]

What in the hell are you playing from 428 yards on a par-four as a 22 handicap??? 
 

The lightest shade if I’m reading your zones correctly, is your 3-wood on the 5th hole. Yes you may have a longer approach into the green, but over time you will score lower remember bogey is really good and 6 is ok on this hole.

 

The par 5 hit driver… If you get in the trees learn a punch shot with a 7 or 8 iron. You’ll make more 5s and 6s hitting driver than not.

 

[Hugh Jars]

6 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

What in the hell are you playing from 428 yards on a par-four as a 22 handicap??? 
 

The lightest shade if I’m reading your zones correctly, is your 3-wood on the 5th hole. Yes you may have a longer approach into the green, but over time you will score lower remember bogey is really good and 6 is ok on this hole.

 

The par 5 hit driver… If you get in the trees learn a punch shot with a 7 or 8 iron. You’ll make more 5s and 6s hitting driver than not.

 

Cant choose the tee you play from in club comps. In Australia you can't just play social rounds from any tee you please and count them to your handicap.

[onthehunt526]

9 minutes ago, Andy Capped said:

Cant choose the tee you play from in club comps. In Australia you can't just play social rounds from any tee you please and count them to your handicap.

Why not aren’t all tees on your course rated??? You’d just have a different course handicap if you played one tee forward, that’s why the World Golf Handicap System was developed, so I wouldn’t go to Australia and have a different index then I do here in the states GHIN is GHIN my friend.

[Hugh Jars]

7 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Why not aren’t all tees on your course rated??? You’d just have a different course handicap if you played one tee forward, that’s why the World Golf Handicap System was developed, so I wouldn’t go to Australia and have a different index then I do here in the states GHIN is GHIN my friend.

At my club only the blue tees are course rated for the men. On comp day everyone has to play from these blue tees. You get a daily handicap - as a 21.7 I normally get to play off a 25. (132/73). Pretty typical of most clubs here Id say.

Also, social rounds cannot be counted towards your handicap. Personally I think its pretty dodgy that this is allowed in other countries. Does every single person playing social rounds with their mates play exactly by the rules of golf?

Edited June 29, 2021 by Andy Capped

[boogielicious]

@Andy Capped,

I think you are answering your own question. 5 wood gives you the best chance to par the hole on average until you get the dispersion down on the driver. Think of it as a 4.5 hole and not a par 4.

[saevel25]

The longest club that keeps you inside the ropes (tree line). Now you will hit a few really bad shots with the 3-wood or 5-wood that will double down on it being shorter and now you are in trouble. If your shot zone for the 3-wood keeps you out of the trees 95% of the time, hit that. 

 

[Shindig]

11 hours ago, Andy Capped said:

If I go into the trees on the right, the probability of being able to advance the ball towards the hole is quite low. Approximately 2/5  chance. Those other times it is nearly always a chip out and possibly a lost ball/unplayable. Yesterday I took a risk and went driver and ended up right. Fortunately I had a clear lie and clearance to be able to hit my 9 iron over trees and back into the fairway to give me a 100m pitch on my next shot. With the bunker on the right, sometimes chipping out can even be difficult.

I've made par on this hole recently in a comp (4 points - net eagle!) by going 5 wood, then hitting a well struck 5 hybrid into the left greenside bunker then being very lucky with my bunker shot putting it next to the hole for a tap in. The bunker on the left is quite shallow. But there's a risk with using a long club for a second shot for me. I can spray them with a big push to the right.

Okay, so 5-wood leaves you a shot at the green.  I agree with what I think @saevel25 said:  hit a 3-wood if you'll keep it out of trouble a good fraction of the time, and otherwise hit 5-wood.

Then hit your next shot, which you might want to be your 6-iron if that bunker is likely to come into play or if you can spray them.

Here's the strategy then:

* Shot that is very likely to be in play off the tee.  Fairway is great, first cut (if it exists) is fine, trees are not.

* Second shot that will stay on grass.  At your level, at this time, the green is not the target.  As your full swing improves, so too will the length of your tee shots on this hole and your quality of second shots (and they'll be with shorter clubs).  But for today, we're playing with what we can do today.

* Pitch onto the green.  Do you know your partial wedge distances?  If not, there's a great article in this site's instructional content (I can link to it if you want) that covers how to do it.  LSW also goes into it.  If you can get near the flag, that's awesome.  But your overwhelming priority is on the green.

* Since you pitched on, you can probably two-putt it.

Outcome if all goes according to plan:  5.  Any number of things can happen here, such as hitting a bad full swing, leading to three shots before your pitch.  Or you might miss the green with the pitch, or three-putt, or something like that.  These things happen.  A good plan doesn't guarantee a good outcome, but it sure is better than not having a plan.  And a 6 on this hole isn't bad at the moment -- if you can avoid ever making worse than a 6 on any hole, I bet your score improves.

8 hours ago, Andy Capped said:

Also, social rounds cannot be counted towards your handicap. Personally I think its pretty dodgy that this is allowed in other countries. Does every single person playing social rounds with their mates play exactly by the rules of golf?

No, but there are allowances in the handicap system for it.  For example, "most likely score" if you pick up before you hole out -- so if you pick up a one-footer, treat it as if you had made it.  Of course, that isn't allowed in a tournament.

A bigger phenomenon is people having artificially low handicaps from mulligans, overly generous gimmes, and breakfast balls.  I love playing against those guys in tournaments.  But that's another conversation. 

5 hours ago, boogielicious said:

@Andy Capped,

I think you are answering your own question. 5 wood gives you the best chance to par the hole on average until you get the dispersion down on the driver. Think of it as a 4.5 hole and not a par 4.

What he said.  There are four holes at my home course I think of as being stated par plus 0.5.  

[Hugh Jars]

10 hours ago, Shindig said:

Okay, so 5-wood leaves you a shot at the green.  I agree with what I think @saevel25 said:  hit a 3-wood if you'll keep it out of trouble a good fraction of the time, and otherwise hit 5-wood.

Then hit your next shot, which you might want to be your 6-iron if that bunker is likely to come into play or if you can spray them.

Here's the strategy then:

* Shot that is very likely to be in play off the tee.  Fairway is great, first cut (if it exists) is fine, trees are not.

* Second shot that will stay on grass.  At your level, at this time, the green is not the target.  As your full swing improves, so too will the length of your tee shots on this hole and your quality of second shots (and they'll be with shorter clubs).  But for today, we're playing with what we can do today.

* Pitch onto the green.  Do you know your partial wedge distances?  If not, there's a great article in this site's instructional content (I can link to it if you want) that covers how to do it.  LSW also goes into it.  If you can get near the flag, that's awesome.  But your overwhelming priority is on the green.

* Since you pitched on, you can probably two-putt it.

Outcome if all goes according to plan:  5.  Any number of things can happen here, such as hitting a bad full swing, leading to three shots before your pitch.  Or you might miss the green with the pitch, or three-putt, or something like that.  These things happen.  A good plan doesn't guarantee a good outcome, but it sure is better than not having a plan.  And a 6 on this hole isn't bad at the moment -- if you can avoid ever making worse than a 6 on any hole, I bet your score improves.

No, but there are allowances in the handicap system for it.  For example, "most likely score" if you pick up before you hole out -- so if you pick up a one-footer, treat it as if you had made it.  Of course, that isn't allowed in a tournament.

A bigger phenomenon is people having artificially low handicaps from mulligans, overly generous gimmes, and breakfast balls.  I love playing against those guys in tournaments.  But that's another conversation. 

What he said.  There are four holes at my home course I think of as being stated par plus 0.5.  

Thanks. This is awesome advice. Recently I've had it in my mind to just try and advance the ball as far as I can. That was until I got the the section on shot zones and shadings etc in LSW. 

These are my dispersions/distances with the driver v 3 wood v 5 wood:

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Andy Capped

[onthehunt526]

17 minutes ago, Andy Capped said:

Thanks. This is awesome advice. Recently I've had it in my mind to just try and advance the ball as far as I can. That was until I got the the section on shot zones and shadings etc in LSW. 

These are my dispersions/distances with the driver v 3 wood v 5 wood:

 

So 252 yards with the Driver, 223 yards with the 3-wood, and 211 yards with the 5-wood? Sorry I don’t deal well in metres @Andy Capped. I have to convert in order for me to make sense of it.

I have a couple final points that will help lower your scores. 
 

1) It looks like you should be wearing out your 5-wood. Just hit that club off the tee. Like a lot. Yeah, you should work on your driver. But your 5-wood you can probably sneak another 7 yards out of and get to 218y (200m). It looks like a majority of your shots with your 5-wood. Are in the 190-210m range (yes I can convert back and forth)

2) Stay out of the shit, call the zoo. If your spraying it right aim at the left edge of the fairway, if your yanking it in the left shit, aim at the right edge. 
 

I bet on that 427y par-four, If you went 5-wood, something you can hit off the floor decently forward even if that is a 150m 6-iron. If you hit the green in 3 the worst you’ll ever make is a double. You might make par. Hell you may even catch it downwind one day and make a net albo for 5 in a comp.

Finally, use a piece of bread to butter your corn on the cob it’ll change your life forever.

[Hugh Jars]

46 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

So 252 yards with the Driver, 223 yards with the 3-wood, and 211 yards with the 5-wood? Sorry I don’t deal well in metres @Andy Capped. I have to convert in order for me to make sense of it.

I have a couple final points that will help lower your scores. 
 

1) It looks like you should be wearing out your 5-wood. Just hit that club off the tee. Like a lot. Yeah, you should work on your driver. But your 5-wood you can probably sneak another 7 yards out of and get to 218y (200m). It looks like a majority of your shots with your 5-wood. Are in the 190-210m range (yes I can convert back and forth)

2) Stay out of the shit, call the zoo. If your spraying it right aim at the left edge of the fairway, if your yanking it in the left shit, aim at the right edge. 
 

I bet on that 427y par-four, If you went 5-wood, something you can hit off the floor decently forward even if that is a 150m 6-iron. If you hit the green in 3 the worst you’ll ever make is a double. You might make par. Hell you may even catch it downwind one day and make a net albo for 5 in a comp.

Finally, use a piece of bread to butter your corn on the cob it’ll change your life forever

46 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

 

Thanks for the awesome advice. There are a few holes on my course where the 5 wood is my go-to every time. Like hole 1 below and a long par 3 on the back 9. Ive previously had a go at exclusively using the 5 wood and shot some ok scores on my home course but after a complete horror I-want-to-quit-forever round at an away course where I was hooking it into the crap leaving me miles from anywhere I decided to try and get the ball up there more when I can. It can be difficult to control with the wind up, which is common here in Perth.

Im booking in for a driver fitting soon because long term I want it to be a reliable club for me.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Andy Capped

[onthehunt526]

1 minute ago, Andy Capped said:

 

Thanks for the awesome advice. There are a few holes on my course where the 5 wood is my go-to every time. Like hole 1 below and a long par 3 on the back 9. Ive previously had a go at exclusively using the 5 wood and shot some ok scores on my home course but after a complete horror I-want-to-quit-forever round at an away course where I was hooking it into the crap leaving me miles from anywhere I decided to try and get the ball up there more when I can. It can be difficult to control with the wind up, which is common here in Perth.

Im booking in for a driver fitting soon because long term I want it to be a reliable club for me.

The driver fitting will be a huge help, because Driving is an SV (4) skill and is the second most important skill behind approaching the green. The other SV (4) skill is: GamePlanning. You’re working on that part which is half the battle.

There is a difference between the crap and the shit. The crap is far from the fairway but not nearly as far away as the shit. The shit is in a different zip code occasionally time zone or area code, which for that tiny section of Western Australia in which the poisonous snakes and crocodiles hang out. The Zoo is the space they call New York City. The main riff of that song is actually set  at such a tempo that it’s good for a golf swing… try it…

[Hugh Jars]

4 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

The driver fitting will be a huge help, because Driving is an SV (4) skill and is the second most important skill behind approaching the green. The other SV (4) skill is: GamePlanning. You’re working on that part which is half the battle.

There is a difference between the crap and the shit. The crap is far from the fairway but not nearly as far away as the shit. The shit is in a different zip code occasionally time zone or area code, which for that tiny section of Western Australia in which the poisonous snakes and crocodiles hang out. The Zoo is the space they call New York City. The main riff of that song is actually set  at such a tempo that it’s good for a golf swing… try it…

Haha awesome stuff mate. Well at my course I've seen numerous tiger snakes and dugites so that gives you a good idea where my balls go on occasion. Up there with two of the most venemous snakes in the world. In summer it gets up to 45 degrees celcius (113 F) with howling easterly gales making the place hell on Earth.

[Shorty]

21 hours ago, onthehunt526 said:

Why not aren’t all tees on your course rated??? You’d just have a different course handicap if you played one tee forward, that’s why the World Golf Handicap System was developed, so I wouldn’t go to Australia and have a different index then I do here in the states GHIN is GHIN my friend.

You wouldn't but you wouldn't get to pick and choose the tees you play from. There are generally 3 tees - men's, ladies and back tees (which rarely used - once a month in stroke play.) Most rounds are stableford.

We play competition golf and, basically, men play from the men's tees. This means that there are going to be lots of holes which are unreachable for many guys in the  competition who are not long hitters. And in monthly medal (stroke play) rounds it'll be from the back tees.That's what handicaps are for. I think there are a lot of players who would get a shock if they were told what tees to play from and thought it was strange that there were par 4s they could never reach in 2. That's just the way it is here. In the UK too, I think. As has been mentioned many times before, in Australia and the UK, most rounds are played in competition. Sure we have "social golfers" but they generally don't have official handicaps. From what I see, the majority if golfers in the US are what we would call "social golfers" - and I am sure that many of them  find the game much more enjoyable when they can choose tees to play from where all holes are essentially reachable in regulation.

If you play in a pro-am here, you are playing fro the same tees as the pros, no matter what your handicap is.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Shorty

[onthehunt526]

2 minutes ago, Shorty said:

You wouldn't but you wouldn't get to pick and choose the tees you play from.

We play competition golf and, basically, men play from the men's tees. This means that there are going to be lots of holes which are unreachable for many guys in the  competition who are not long hitters. And in monthly medal (stroke play) rounds it'll be from the back tees.That's what handicaps are for. I think there are a lot of players who would get a shock if they were told what tees to play from and thought it was strange that there were par 4s they could never reach in 2. That's just the way it is here. In the UK too, I think. As has been mentioned many times before, in Australia and the UK, most rounds are played in competition. Sure we have "social golfers" but they generally don't have official handicaps. From what I see, the majority if golfers in the US are what we would call "social golfers" - and I am sure that many of them  find the game much more enjoyable when they can choose tees to play from where all holes are essentially reachable in regulation.

Isn’t there an age cut off where you can at least move up to the yellow tees? I think in the UK they have like mens medal, then yellow and womens tees.  
 

All tees have to be rated in order for a course to be able to be acceptable for GHIN and the world handicap system…

So what I’m asking is, couldn’t you have a comp from a forward tee that would count toward handicap (you’d just have a different course handicap from the forward tees.) SSS is no longer the standard. It’s now the Course Rating.

I know The UK just started complying with the World Handicap System. But I think Golf Australia may be behind because of COVID… am I wrong? 

[Hugh Jars]

35 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Isn’t there an age cut off where you can at least move up to the yellow tees? I think in the UK they have like mens medal, then yellow and womens tees.  
 

All tees have to be rated in order for a course to be able to be acceptable for GHIN and the world handicap system…

So what I’m asking is, couldn’t you have a comp from a forward tee that would count toward handicap (you’d just have a different course handicap from the forward tees.) SSS is no longer the standard. It’s now the Course Rating.

I know The UK just started complying with the World Handicap System. But I think Golf Australia may be behind because of COVID… am I wrong? 

Yep, you're correct here I've just learnt. There are yellow tees at my course which are course rated, apparently reserved for the very elderly I've been told. Not sure what the age limit is. If I was to play off these tees my daily handicap is 20. Green tees its 25. I reckon that 20 handicap would be a struggle for me off the yellows - on many holes they aren't that much more forward....

We also have white tees which aren't rated. I think these are for casual rounds.

Our blue tees for comps move around a lot. Tuesdays and Saturdays they are forward. Often next to the whites. I've even seen the blue tees ahead of the whites on a hole or two. On Thursdays and Sundays the blue tees are way back, maybe to cater for the those more skillful and with more distance off the tee.

I like playing Sundays....more of a family, relaxed vibe compared to Saturdays.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Andy Capped