Conceded Putt Blown Into the Hole

[Hohjoe]

I vote 3, since B conceded.

[woodzie264]

3 hours ago, Vinsk said:

I voted he makes 3. Player A is allowed 10sec from the time he reasonably arrives at the ball.

This

[Vinsk]

1 minute ago, woodzie264 said:

This

I think it’s only if the ball is overhanging?

Edited September 11, 2021 by Vinsk

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Missouri Swede said:

I see your point. I don't know what the final interpretation will be.

The player scores a 4.

HIs ball was at rest, thus, the concession was legitimate and converted his ball to a movable obstruction, not a ball in play.

1 hour ago, Missouri Swede said:

But the result of A's first putt (without concession) is that it is holed. If the concession prevents this, then the concession is preventing the first putt from coming to this final result.

Except the result is finalized when a concession is made and the ball is at rest. If the player concedes the next shot while the ball is still rolling, it's finalized as soon as it comes to rest.

1 hour ago, Missouri Swede said:

["I've been wrong before.  Thought I made a mistake.  Turns out I didn't."]

And you're wrong here. 😄

Just now, woodzie264 said:

This

Not that. The ball isn't overhanging the hole. The ten-second thing has no bearing here.

[woodzie264]

@iacas, good rules question! 

[Vinsk]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

Except the result is finalized when a concession is made and the ball is at rest.

So does the ball overhanging override a concession? Is overhanging considered not at rest? I’m asking as per the Solheim Cup situation. Had Euro said, this putt is good before picking it up, would that not matter since the 10sec hadn’t passed?

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Is overhanging considered not at rest?

Correct.

11 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Had Euro said, this putt is good before picking it up, would that not matter since the 10sec hadn’t passed?

Correct… since that's basically what they did. If they had said "that's good" and Nelly had picked up her ball herself (there's no rule that says you MUST wait the ten seconds after you get there), she'd have made birdie instead of eagle. But by picking up her ball (or knocking it back to her or any equivalent) before she could wait the ten seconds after arriving, she deprived Nelly of that "right" and Nelly's putt was considered holed.

---

That's why the ten-second rule only applies to a ball overhanging the hole. And why ten seconds? Because it feels long enough to know that a ball will go in or not, and short enough to not hold up play a ton.

[Shindig]

Neither a 3 nor a 4 are in evidence from the original question unless we assume that the first putt A attempted that we read about in the first post was for a 3 (in which case, the answer is 4).  

49 minutes ago, iacas said:

And why ten seconds? Because it feels long enough to know that a ball will go in or not, and short enough to not hold up play a ton.

For anyone wondering later if this would have held up play:  I believe the rule is in response to when Don January did hold up play when believing that the wind would knock his ball into the hole.  It did, but it was something like thirty minutes later.

[Ruler]

6 hours ago, Shindig said:

For anyone wondering later if this would have held up play:  I believe the rule is in response to when Don January did hold up play when believing that the wind would knock his ball into the hole.  It did, but it was something like thirty minutes later.

Not quite but close.

Arnold Palmer wrote about this event at 1963 Phoenix Open in his great book Playing by The Rules. According to him Don waited for 7 minutes because in his opinion the ball was moving. Finally the ball fell in and Don said 'Told you it was moving'. However, I have read another description from that event according to which the ball did not fall into the hole but after those 7-8 minutes Don yielded under pressure from other competitors and putted the ball in. Whichever is true, the 10 second Rule was drafted shortly after and released in 1964.

[Shindig]

4 hours ago, Ruler said:

Not quite but close.

Arnold Palmer wrote about this event at 1963 Phoenix Open in his great book Playing by The Rules. According to him Don waited for 7 minutes because in his opinion the ball was moving. Finally the ball fell in and Don said 'Told you it was moving'. However, I have read another description from that event according to which the ball did not fall into the hole but after those 7-8 minutes Don yielded under pressure from other competitors and putted the ball in. Whichever is true, the 10 second Rule was drafted shortly after and released in 1964.

Dang, I should not have gone from memory.  I used to read that book very regularly but it's been a while, and I didn't have it readily accessible when I wrote my post.  Good catch.

[Missouri Swede]

So in this case the concession added a stroke to player A's score, that player A would not have had if no concession had been made.  Informative.

[Shorty]

14 hours ago, Shindig said:

  

For anyone wondering later if this would have held up play:  I believe the rule is in response to when Don January did hold up play when believing that the wind would knock his ball into the hole.  It did, but it was something like thirty minutes later.

This is totally incorrect.

1. It was "7 or 8" minutes later. But one even wonders if that is an exaggeration. 30 minutes? Where did that come from?!

2. Also, it wasn't that he "thought the wind would knock his ball into the hole". It was (supposedly) that he didn't want to be penalised for hitting a moving ball.

3. It didn't eventually fall in. He tapped it in.

And just to clarify - the fact that some may say that there is debate about whether the ball was tapped in or fell into the hole would imply that the whole story was exaggerated anyway. Maybe the "7 or 8 minutes" was 2 minutes. Just sayin'. If people aren't sure if the ball was putted in or not they certainly aren't sure how long he waited. My guess is that it was "ages" and the "7 or 8"  minutes was a totally exaggerated BS story because Player or whoever thought it sounded better.

And.....if an unlikely story involves Gary Player you can be sure it's bullsh*t.

 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Shorty

[Vinsk]

9 hours ago, Ruler said:

Not quite but close.

Arnold Palmer wrote about this event at 1963 Phoenix Open in his great book Playing by The Rules. According to him Don waited for 7 minutes because in his opinion the ball was moving. Finally the ball fell in and Don said 'Told you it was moving'. However, I have read another description from that event according to which the ball did not fall into the hole but after those 7-8 minutes Don yielded under pressure from other competitors and putted the ball in. Whichever is true, the 10 second Rule was drafted shortly after and released in 1964.

January was responsible for a change to the Rules of Golf. During the 1963 Phoenix Open, January had a putt roll up to the lip of the hole and stop. January claimed that the ball was still moving, and waited for seven minutes for the ball to drop (it never did).^[2] Rule 16-2 was revised in 1964 to state that players had to tap the ball in within ten seconds or be penalized.^[3]

[Ruler]

34 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

January was responsible for a change to the Rules of Golf. During the 1963 Phoenix Open, January had a putt roll up to the lip of the hole and stop. January claimed that the ball was still moving, and waited for seven minutes for the ball to drop (it never did).^[2] Rule 16-2 was revised in 1964 to state that players had to tap the ball in within ten seconds or be penalized.^[3]

I thought I just explained what you seem to have copied from Wikipedia...

[boogielicious]

4 hours ago, Ruler said:

I thought I just explained what you seem to have copied from Wikipedia...

I believe he was confirming your statement. 

[HankBlue]

I scored it a 3.  No swing taken = no swing scored.

 

I'd further argue that the concession must be accepted.

Edited September 12, 2021 by HankBlue

[iacas]

3 hours ago, HankBlue said:

I scored it a 3.  No swing taken = no swing scored.

I'd further argue that the concession must be accepted.

The concession is the stroke. It's a 4.

You can't turn down a concession, correct. The stroke conceded was the fourth.

[DFW75]

On 9/12/2021 at 10:14 AM, iacas said:

The concession is the stroke. It's a 4.

You can't turn down a concession, correct. The stroke conceded was the fourth.

I was wondering about this. Since the player cannot turn down a concession - what protects the player from an opponent declaring a concession early? I know that the concession isn't awarded until the ball comes to rest - so I'd assume then that the rules governing when a ball is at rest would take precedence over the concession to make sure the ball is at rest before awarding a concession?