USGA/R&A Changes to the Equipment Standards?

[Vinsk]

I like where golf is and see no reason for this silly ‘roll back.’ Every sport has athletes getting better and better. I think it’s exciting to watch the changes. I still don’t see players consistently shooting ridiculous scores where ever tournament is a birdie fest.
 

The depth of the field on the PGA TOUR is what I find exciting. Let them bomb it away. Even If every player on tour all of a sudden could bomb it 400yds, you’d still have a winner. That’s what’s so great about golf. Just so many aspects of the game that can make it compelling to watch and hard to predict. People still choke and still shank. I love it as it is. 

[boogielicious]

8 hours ago, jbishop15 said:

r. I thought we were having a conversation, not a debate.

It is a conversation. I’d like to hear your thoughts on why. It seems counter to progress in everything else, other sports, technology,. etc. Athletes are faster, stronger than before in every sport. Technology in general keeps getting better. Why should golf go back? 

[iacas]

6 hours ago, jbishop15 said:

I just didn’t think anybody would be interested in hearing the entire text of my reasoning, and assumed that it would be understood as the opener to a discussion, not as a provocation.

We are past the opening, and clearly the first part is wrong. So…?

[iacas]

Sorry, the poll didn't make the merge, but I've restored it.

[jbishop15]

8 hours ago, boogielicious said:

It is a conversation. I’d like to hear your thoughts on why. It seems counter to progress in everything else, other sports, technology,. etc. Athletes are faster, stronger than before in every sport. Technology in general keeps getting better. Why should golf go back? 

Part of it is a sustainability issue. To keep up with the better technology, courses have gotten longer, which takes more resources to maintain, which makes the success of a golf course less likely. 

Another part is that, in my opinion, bomb and gouge golf isn't very exciting. I watch as much LPGA golf as I do PGA golf, and I enjoy watching them hit have to hit shots that the men never have to, simply because they hit it farther. 

To combine those two issues, American Parkland-style golf is target golf; hit it high, hit far, carry it all the way there. A more links-like style of golf brings in more styles of play, and those kinds of courses often require less resources (IE water) to keep up. 

In lieu of reducing distance, I would be in favor of making the ball spinnier, so that mishits off the tee are much more penalized than they are now. 

[Indy-Archer]

On 6/13/2022 at 4:37 PM, DrvFrShow said:

And then there's been talk about the dogleg problem where elite players have cut doglegs over adjacent holes to drive the greens. On my home course that's impossible due to the 100+ foot tall pines, but.... just for places where it is possible, here's a solution. You can send me the $750K in consulting fees. 

Kinda hard to transplant a 100’+ tree. Or we can wait 50 years to grow an Oak. 
 

 

[boogielicious]

Just now, Indy-Archer said:

Kinda hard to transplant a 100’+ tree. Or we can wait 50 years to grow an Oak. 
 

 

How about 12’ River Birch right next to the tee? They grow to 20 feet in three years.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, jbishop15 said:

Part of it is a sustainability issue. To keep up with the better technology, courses have gotten longer, which takes more resources to maintain, which makes the success of a golf course less likely.

No no no no no. I want to hear your reasoning for this "boring" stuff.

On 6/13/2022 at 2:32 PM, jbishop15 said:

I put -20%. Ball flies too far, incentivizes boring golf, and forces courses to get too long or put boring obstacles like super high rough.

So…

5 hours ago, jbishop15 said:

Another part is that, in my opinion, bomb and gouge golf isn't very exciting.

You've yet to share why you think rolling back the ball would make golf less boring. I've offered a counter-argument, so where is yours?

5 hours ago, jbishop15 said:

I watch as much LPGA golf as I do PGA golf, and I enjoy watching them hit have to hit shots that the men never have to, simply because they hit it farther.

So do I, but mostly because I have a daughter, but what's "more exciting" about someone hitting a hybrid to 35 feet than a 9-iron to 12 feet with a little spin? What's more exciting about "worse" golf?

If you roll back the ball, then:

• You'll have players playing worse golf. Longer irons, longer approach shots. Worse results.
• If you roll back courses to counter, you've accomplished nothing except actually making it easier to score, because an 8I that goes 150 instead of 170 will be more accurate, too.

Is there something more exciting about a woman almost never getting to a par five in two instead of guys who can get there and make more eagles?

Did you read this article last year?

Women’s golf: Course setup is holding back scoring on the LPGA, beyond

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On March 16, 2001, Annika Sorenstam stepped onto the 18th tee box at Moon Valley Country Club in Phoenix and told her caddie, Terry McNamara, that she needed to make a par. She’d made eight consecu…

It argued that golf courses should be shortened because LPGA Tour golf is kinda boring. Players don't score all that well, they rarely make eagles or go for par fives in two, etc.

5 hours ago, jbishop15 said:

To combine those two issues, American Parkland-style golf is target golf; hit it high, hit far, carry it all the way there.

How would rolling back the ball change that?

5 hours ago, jbishop15 said:

A more links-like style of golf brings in more styles of play, and those kinds of courses often require less resources (IE water) to keep up.

What's that go to do with rolling back the ball?

5 hours ago, jbishop15 said:

In lieu of reducing distance, I would be in favor of making the ball spinnier, so that mishits off the tee are much more penalized than they are now. 

I don't think that would do what you think it would do.

[Phil McGleno]

Are you sure you thought about it as much as you think you have-@jbishop15?

The LPGA Tour is not better golf.-They are a shallower Tour with easier hole locations.-The players have more personality sometimes but that is about it. THey hit it shorter, too, so they are more accurate for fairways. But they are hitting a 4I for a PGA Tour player from the tee-So of course they are more accurate.

[DrvFrShow]

@Indy-Archer You're forgetting about poplar and sycamore trees which can grow 6'/yr. Plant a 20' tree, keep it watered, and it will grow. And in a few years, you have a nasty obstacle.

[iacas]

I don’t think it’s necessary, but if they do something to roll back… I hope they understand what they’re doing.

[iacas]

[saevel25]

16 minutes ago, iacas said:

UGH, I hate this. I think they are going to over correct a ton here. It will just hurt the game. 

Just live with the fact that top golfers in the world are very good. Guess what, the more you increase money in the game, the more you will get better athletes to consider golf as a career options. Golfers are just better athletes now than they have ever been. I bet the average height of the golfer today is much taller than golfers back in the early 2000's. Look at the NFL combine this past year. The 40 yard times are ridiculous now. QB's are running sub 4.7 40's and I am not talking about the running QB's. Like, the big time passing QB's out of college. 

Maybe there is a big issue with course maintenance with the increase in distance that I do not know about. Maybe something like a 5% might be enough. I think they want something like 10-15%. Which would be substantial. 

 

[iacas]

Golf-ball rules could dramatically change under new proposal. Here's what we know

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Golf ball rollback? Bifurcation? The USGA and R&A are set to send a shockwave through the golf world with a proposal on Tuesday.

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It’s tough to legislate speed; you can’t tell pros how hard they’re allowed to swing. But by changing the way it tests golf balls, the USGA can effectively make every ball currently in play on Tour non-conforming. How? The USGA mandates that balls can only fly a certain distance (317 yards, with a three-yard tolerance) under the prescribed conditions. If you change those conditions but not the 317 limit, the ball has to change as a result.

Quote

With an easing or elimination of the initial velocity test — the test is defined “as the speed of the ball as it travels 2π feet after impact with the striker” — could potentially increase the distance gap between a potential MLR ball and recreational offering. In other words, weekend golfers could actually see more distance in the long term.

I'm not sure what the "2π feet" thing is about.

Golf governing bodies to announce plan to roll back golf ball for elite competition | Golf Equipment: Clubs, Balls, Bags | GolfDigest.com

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According to sources, the USGA and R&A's plan to limit distance would be through the testing of golf balls by high swing speeds, would only apply to top players

Quote

The USGA and R&A will be proposing a new golf ball testing standard for elite competition that would roll back performance by 20 yards or more. But that proposal still must navigate a Notice and Comment period which lasts through mid-August.

Hmmmm.

[saevel25]

As a local rule, then any tournament using USGA Sanctioned rules could implement that local rule? Which means, amateurs who play in tournaments may need to carry two different types of golf balls and know how to play with both because they will product different ball flights. 

 

[iacas]

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2023/Notice-Proposed-MLR-Golf-Balls-Final.pdf

[DeadMan]

Based on what I'm reading, this is about a 15 yard reduction. 

I'm torn on this. On one hand, this isn't really going to affect me much. If we lose 15 yards of distance on the pro tours, I'm not sure how much I really care. On the other hand, if all they're doing is losing 15 yards, what's the point of this? If we assume 15 yards less per hole, the Tour can play 6900 yard courses instead of 7200 yard courses. Does that bring back many classic courses that we want to see? (Answer: no, because the problem with a lot of those courses is they don't have the square footage for the infrastructure needed for PGA Tour events.) 

What are the odds the PGA Tour adopts the new rule, too? I would say 50/50 at best at this point.

Update on that last point:

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by DeadMan

[DaveP043]

2 hours ago, saevel25 said:

As a local rule, then any tournament using USGA Sanctioned rules could implement that local rule? Which means, amateurs who play in tournaments may need to carry two different types of golf balls and know how to play with both because they will product different ball flights. 

This, to me, is the biggest potential issue with bifurcation through MLR.  As players improve and move into more elite events, they'll have to adapt to a different ball, perhaps playing with the different balls in different events in consecutive weeks.  Other drawbacks are the additional effort required by manufacturers to research and manufacture balls to two different standards, and the obvious change to marketing, we'll no longer be playing the "same ball the pros play".  To be honest, this proposal doesn't surprise me at all, its exactly in line with the announcement from a year ago.  We'll see what happens.