USGA/R&A Changes to the Equipment Standards?

[GolfLug]

9 minutes ago, chspeed said:

Not to me. This part of the argument I never quite understood. We don't use MLB-regulation bats and balls, yet still love to play softball. We don't play soccer on a standard pitch, but still play pick-up soccer. Doesn't stop us from fantasizing about hitting a 400 ft. home run or bending it like Beckham.

IMO, the game pros play is SO different than the game average amateurs play; custom fitted clubs, private courses, incredible course conditions, supersonic swing speeds, etc. that the equipment specs are somewhat besides the point. The issue of the tiny fraction of golfers that play high-level or competitive golf is easily resolved with an MLR ball, custom-fitted clubs, and playing from the tips.

That said, I doubt bifurcation will happen because of inertia, golf politics, and fear of losing money.

 

There are other headstarts already available and thriving in golf. .like shorter tees 6000 yard tees, it is handicapped accordingly. Heck move up to 'senior' tees.

[chspeed]

17 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

There are other headstarts already available and thriving in golf. .like shorter tees 6000 yard tees, it is handicapped accordingly. Heck move up to 'senior' tees.

How is that a head start? I’m not changing my ball, I’ll be playing the same pro-v1. It’s the pros that are changing the ball.

Not that there’s anything wrong with playing 6,000 yd courses.

I understand the comments on the difference between direct and indirect bifurcation. IMO, that’s a technical difference that doesn’t reallly affect the average golfer. In other words, to me, the fact that I don’t play at Winged Foot at 7,600 yards is more important than whether my ball carries 5 yds longer.

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2023 by chspeed

[iacas]

2 hours ago, hunterdog said:

In the Casey Martin lawsuit

They ruled that walking wasn't essential to playing golf. They were wrong in one sense: that all the walking that a Tour player does is definitely plays a role in how they play on Sunday, and that's why the Tour players (almost) all didn't like the ruling. But they were right in that it was not and is not "essentially" the act of playing the sport.

How you get from shot to shot isn't "golf." It is, however, a big part of the competition that Tour players are playing in. And that's where the two sides didn't match up.

2 hours ago, hunterdog said:

My point is simply that the PGAT currently has equipment rules that are not the same for recreational golfers and I happen to believe that

No, they don't.

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=16

You're wrong here.

2 hours ago, hunterdog said:

My point is simply that the PGAT currently has equipment rules that are not the same for recreational golfers and I happen to believe that, at the highest levels, should be based upon, in part, their physical and mental fitness after walking 18 - think of Hogan after the car accident, Venturi walking 36 at the US Open, or Tiger Woods at Torrey winning the US Open.

You're confusing a competition (a PGA Tour event) with "playing the game."

Golfers rarely compete in 72-hole-over-four-days-stroke-play-competitions, but they're still playing golf. Just because the PGA Tour sets competitive rules (that amateurs can choose to play or not) doesn't mean they're changing rules regarding how the game is actually played on the "hit a ball with a stick toward a hole" level.

29 minutes ago, chspeed said:

Not to me. This part of the argument I never quite understood. We don't use MLB-regulation bats and balls, yet still love to play softball.

It is to me.

The thing about other sports is… there's already a disconnect because there are opponents. If you're playing on a regulation pool table and you run out the rack from the break, you can say "I did it like the pros!" because it's a singular act, with no opponent.

If you're playing softball, you're already ten steps removed from MLB because you don't have a MLB pitcher throwing to you.

29 minutes ago, chspeed said:

We don't play soccer on a standard pitch, but still play pick-up soccer. Doesn't stop us from fantasizing about hitting a 400 ft. home run or bending it like Beckham.

Again, it's two things…

• I've scored a few goals in soccer that great soccer players would admire, and this holds because it was a singular act: me, kicking a ball, and bending it around a defender into the top right corner of the net.
• I've gone end-to-end and scored some goals, too, but those I don't fantasize about because… they wouldn't have happened if I had to beat four actual soccer players, not the chumps against which I play.

If you get up and down in golf, the hole is the same size, the equipment is the same size and under the same regulations… etc. If you get a par on a hole, or a birdie, you've always been able to directly compare that to what a Tour player would do, or anyone else at any level.

That breaks with bifurcation.

Not to mention the hassle of people below the line, and what they have to deal with in trying to move up while staying competitive at their current level.

29 minutes ago, chspeed said:

IMO, the game pros play is SO different than the game average amateurs play; custom fitted clubs, private courses, incredible course conditions, supersonic swing speeds, etc.

And yet, again, if you birdie a hole with your non-custom-fitted clubs at your run-down public muni with your molasses-slow swing speed, you can directly compare that result to what a pro would do.

And those things aren't true for all: I have custom fitted clubs, and many of my juniors do, etc. Many play on good course conditions (they're not as great on the PGA Tour as you seem to think), and you can play on many of their courses, too. Heck, they even host some events at munis!

29 minutes ago, chspeed said:

That said, I doubt bifurcation will happen because of inertia, golf politics, and fear of losing money.

So you think they're going to change it to a full rollback?

[chspeed]

32 minutes ago, iacas said:

And yet, again, if you birdie a hole with your non-custom-fitted clubs at your run-down public muni with your molasses-slow swing speed, you can directly compare that result to what a pro would do.

And those things aren't true for all: I have custom fitted clubs, and many of my juniors do, etc. Many play on good course conditions (they're not as great on the PGA Tour as you seem to think), and you can play on many of their courses, too. Heck, they even host some events at munis!

I get it.I personally would still feel great with a birdie even if the ball didn't have exactly the same specs. I might think about it for a few months, but then just forget about it. If anything, I'll be grateful for the extra yard I squeeze out of my sugar-coated swing speed.. 😜

38 minutes ago, iacas said:

So you think they're going to change it to a full rollback?

I'm guessing nothing happens, but what do I know?

[iacas]

29 minutes ago, chspeed said:

I get it.I personally would still feel great with a birdie even if the ball didn't have exactly the same specs.

That's you. And it'll be different than it is now.

It's like changing the amateur hole to be 5". It's not the same in a way that directly affects the core nature of playing the game.

29 minutes ago, chspeed said:

I'm guessing nothing happens, but what do I know?

I'd take that bet. It's gonna happen.

[GolfLug]

2 hours ago, chspeed said:

How is that a head start? I’m not changing my ball, I’ll be playing the same pro-v1. It’s the pros that are changing the ball.

Yes I know. And it is important to me that I play the exact same new shorter ball. I don't care if my carry drops from 225 to 200. If not, the same current ball will now feel like a head start in comparison to the pros (the ultimate benchmark, IMHO) I don't want. It's patronizing and would water down the accomplishment against the benchmark. I am already playing shorter tees for my bogey golf. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by GolfLug

[chspeed]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

It's like changing the amateur hole to be 5". It's not the same in a way that directly affects the core nature of playing the game.

That seems more drastic to me. Why? I'm not sure I have an easy answer. One potential answer is that a ball is changeable. If there is bifurcation, I can play the MLR ball if I want, or play the "amateur" ball. If the hold is 5" I can't change it.

For me, using a different ball is akin to not using a regulation basketball or soccer ball. Let's say your ball has a bit more or less air. Is it different? of course. Does it make a difference though?

And of course, it's all a matter of degrees. I'm not talking about playing basketball with a 3" ball. I'm talking about taking some air out so it's diameter is a little smaller and it's a bit easier to control.

Edited March 23, 2023 by chspeed

[iacas]

1 hour ago, chspeed said:

That seems more drastic to me. Why? I'm not sure I have an easy answer.

My point is that it's the same thing, and while you may choose to play the MLR ball, your opponents aren't likely going to be required to, and for all we know they may not even be widely available. The very nature of the things with which we "play golf" are different, by rule, for the pros and us (in 2026 anyway).

This is very different than whether pros take carts or not (which they do more often than some seem to realize).

1 hour ago, chspeed said:

For me, using a different ball is akin to not using a regulation basketball or soccer ball.

Balls are shared amongst other players in other sports. And did you see the above stuff I wrote about playing other sports? The concept of being in the same "situation" has always been weaker in other sports, because they have opponents. The very act of the sport is already very different in those sports; not so in golf.

1 hour ago, chspeed said:

And of course, it's all a matter of degrees. I'm not talking about playing basketball with a 3" ball. I'm talking about taking some air out so it's diameter is a little smaller and it's a bit easier to control.

Okay, but then… it's not regulation. That'd be like playing with the "illegal" golf balls you can find if you look a little bit.

[Beastie]

I am totally against bifurcation. The handicap system and different tees is enough to ensure golfers of even vastly different levels can have a meaningful game. I’ve played golf against and with  beginners, high handicappers, mid caps, club pros, elite amateurs and tour pros. 

IMO the horse has already bolted, the equipment has changed, players are faster and the balance of the game is titled more towards speed ( it always probably was, but with the rise of big data it is much more obvious than the past). This discussion is 30years in the making. It’s waay too late now. 

Either roll back the ball speed for all or just freeze max speeds where we are. 

 

[Vinsk]

If these goofs think this will change how a course is played it still doesn’t fix the distance importance factor. Erik tweeted about the distance importance and how it may be still impact…the importance of distance. Someone replied that it adjusts the skill where someone would have to hit an 8i instead of a wedge, which takes more skill. But the issue still remains that the long baller is hitting an 8i and the dinker is hitting a 6i. Same issue, different numbers no?

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, Vinsk said:

If these goofs think this will change how a course is played it still doesn’t fix the distance importance factor. Erik tweeted about the distance importance and how it may be still impact…the importance of distance. Someone replied that it adjusts the skill where someone would have to hit an 8i instead of a wedge, which takes more skill. But the issue still remains that the long baller is hitting an 8i and the dinker is hitting a 6i. Same issue, different numbers no?

Yes.

Effectively, this makes courses longer, and long courses favor… the longer hitters.

[WillieT]

Was in the shop yesterday and found these balls tucked away.  A good friend’s father-in-law used to play these (literally - they were his practice balls).  Makes me wonder if the “fear” of the ball roll back will amount to something like these. The sport and its members pro and amateur alike will learn to adapt….

[dennyjones]

The roll back will favor the shot makers on the PGAT.   It will still favor the long ball hitters.  I was initially against the roll back but I can see where the game could be more interesting to see players hit some awesome shots from distance.   Rory's drive on the green the other day was nice to watch but as things are going it may be common place in the future.   

[iacas]

11 hours ago, dennyjones said:

The roll back will favor the shot makers on the PGAT.

How do you figure?

And how are you defining "shot makers"?

[ChetlovesMer]

On 3/23/2023 at 7:26 PM, Vinsk said:

If these goofs think this will change how a course is played it still doesn’t fix the distance importance factor. Erik tweeted about the distance importance and how it may be still impact…the importance of distance. Someone replied that it adjusts the skill where someone would have to hit an 8i instead of a wedge, which takes more skill. But the issue still remains that the long baller is hitting an 8i and the dinker is hitting a 6i. Same issue, different numbers no?

 

I think you're correct.

I also think it actually accentuates the distance importance factor. I don't think going to a longer club is a linear progression in terms of how close you hit it. Going from a PW to a 8-iron is more difficult, but it's more more difficult to go from a 7 iron to a 5 iron. 

I don't think this will completely kill off the shorter hitters, but it certainly pounds a nail into their coffins. 

[Vinsk]

IMO the WGC was a great example of how reducing the distance will really diminish the excitement of golf today. Rory hit some of the most awesome drives ever. And getting guys to go for a green protected by water by bombing a 3wood is good golf. Laying up with an iron followed by a pitch is a snooze fest.

See, the problem is the old timers. Thwy think golf has become just a bomb and gouge system.They  don’t understand that we’ve all watched pros with stunning short games since the beginning of golf itself. It’s old and brings nothing new to the game. They’re all good at it. But smoking a driver or even a 3W that the vast majority of golfers in the world couldn’t even attempt is exciting. It’s something new to the game. 
 

Courses are not becoming obsolete. They think watching a pro dink a lay up off the tee and still making birdie makes a course more playable? Hitting it big has huge risks and is a hell of a skill on its own. Rolling back the ball is asinine. Period. Nobody has made a good argument to its benefit other than trying to speculate what it could do to some golf courses if the distance continues to increase. It won’t. Whatever equipment restrictions exist now can remain. Leave it alone.

[dennyjones]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

How do you figure?

And how are you defining "shot makers"?

All things being equal the long ball hitters will still hit their drives farther but I believe that the guys that are better with their longer approach shots (shot makers, my term) will have an advantage

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, dennyjones said:

All things being equal the long ball hitters will still hit their drives farther but I believe that the guys that are better with their longer approach shots (shot makers, my term) will have an advantage

I don't think what I consider "shotmaking" will change much at all.

Longer hitters are still going to be advantaged. If they hit 9I, they might hit 7I now, while the short hitter will now be hitting a 5I or 4I. A 5I is unlikely going to beat out a 7I.