Dave's Journey With the Rules of Golf

[iacas]

7 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I wonder if it is better that announce something like, "The clock has started for the search, remember after 3 minutes it is considered lost even if you find it afterwards." Just to plant that little tidbit of information in the brain. "Oh, yea that is the rule."

The term lost might indicate permanency. Also, visually seeing the ball contradicts this. For me, it is a mental roadblock. Then add in, the player obviously doesn't want to go back to the tee to re-hit. His brain is just fighting it, the ball is here, and its BS I have to walk all the way back there. 

There's a point at which you'd just be going on forever about things, though. The rule is the rule, and you shouldn't have to explain basic stuff to people all the time.

Also, "lost" is what it's called. So… yeah.

Tried to keep it short as it's Dave's topic, so… I am just saying I agree with his venting. 😄 

[GolfLug]

14 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Its my turn to vent a little today.   Yesterday I was a referee at a pro-junior event, a local club pro with a teenage player.  On a dogleg left one of the pros hit a drive along the left, ticking some leaves of the overhanging tree.  We didn't see the ball land.  I went to the area with the rest of the group, and as they started the search (the entire group, including the player), started my stopwatch, just as I normally would.  When 3 minutes passed, I told them time was up, he had to move on.  Then they noticed an unclaimed ball in the fairway, apparently his ball had gone through.  He said "I'll just go play it" and I said you can't, the ball is lost.  "But its right there in the fairway.  What are you saying?"  I told him they'd been searching for more than 4 minutes before they thought to even look at that ball, its a Lost Ball.  He grudgingly went on, telling his teenage partner "He say's its a lost ball".  

Maybe I expect too much, but I expect these professionals to try to be a decent role model for the young players.  This one didn't do a very good job of that.

Well, in the end the right ruling prevailed and that matters the most. I think the kid was well served having seen that in spite of a weakness from the 'pro'. Kids are perceptive and learn through conflict and contradiction. 

I say it's a win. 

[DaveP043]

16 hours ago, saevel25 said:

I wonder if it is better that announce something like, "The clock has started for the search, remember after 3 minutes it is considered lost even if you find it afterwards." Just to plant that little tidbit of information in the brain. "Oh, yea that is the rule."

The term lost might indicate permanency. Also, visually seeing the ball contradicts this. For me, it is a mental roadblock. Then add in, the player obviously doesn't want to go back to the tee to re-hit. His brain is just fighting it, the ball is here, and its BS I have to walk all the way back there. 

If I start the clock when I'm nearby, I'll tell them at that time.  If I only arrive later during the search, I'll update them on the time remaining, usually at 1 minute and finally 30-second intervals, and tell them when the 3 minute time has elapsed.  I don't see any reason to tell a PGA professional what the rule says. 

As for the issue of "permanency", a Lost ball IS lost, as defined in the Rules.  After 3 minutes of searching, a ball is Lost, and immediately becomes a Wrong Ball.  And it remains a Wrong Ball.  If you lift any Wrong Ball on the course, even a range ball, you can later make it your Ball In Play, but as long as it sits there, its forever a Wrong Ball.

[p1n9183]

I think that the spirit of the rule is to avoid slow play. You have 3 minutes to find your ball.. if you don't find it, play another and move on. 
What if we change the rule to... you have 3 minutes to find the ball. After that you need to walk to the place you need to rehit the shot. In the meantime the rest of the group have 2 more minutes to look for the ball. Once the player go back and hit the ball or this 2 additional minutes are done then the ball is officially lost and is not longer in play despite been found. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, p1n9183 said:

I think that the spirit of the rule is to avoid slow play. You have 3 minutes to find your ball.. if you don't find it, play another and move on. 
What if we change the rule to... you have 3 minutes to find the ball. After that you need to walk to the place you need to rehit the shot. In the meantime the rest of the group have 2 more minutes to look for the ball. Once the player go back and hit the ball or this 2 additional minutes are done then the ball is officially lost and is not longer in play despite been found. 

For multiple reasons, including "why should anyone else care to continue to search for someone else's ball?" No thanks.

[DaveP043]

19 hours ago, p1n9183 said:

I think that the spirit of the rule is to avoid slow play. You have 3 minutes to find your ball.. if you don't find it, play another and move on. 
What if we change the rule to... you have 3 minutes to find the ball. After that you need to walk to the place you need to rehit the shot. In the meantime the rest of the group have 2 more minutes to look for the ball. Once the player go back and hit the ball or this 2 additional minutes are done then the ball is officially lost and is not longer in play despite been found. 

I don't see any reason to change the rule, really.  You can always play a Provisional if you care about saving time.  How would your rule change address a Player who hits a Provisional, does he still get 3+2 minutes to search?  Its nice and clean as it is, your change would add complexity to a simple rule.

[ChetlovesMer]

18 hours ago, iacas said:

For multiple reasons, including "why should anyone else care to continue to search for someone else's ball?" No thanks.

This is what I thought of immediately. I consider myself to be a fairly decent human being. But once the player who hit the ball calls off his search. I'm going to go get ready to hit my shot, 

 

3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Its nice and clean as it is, your change would add complexity to a simple rule.

This too

[DaveP043]

My "referee season" is nearing an end, just 2 days of high school state finals, and one last local PGA event.  That brings the total to 44 days overall.  I probably will cut back on that a little for next year, but its good to learn where my upper limit is likely to be.

I did book my first event for next year, the Kenridge Invitational at Farmington CC in Charlottesville.  As I understand it, this is one of the top amateur events in this area, 54 holes of stroke play.  The team of rules officials are treated very well, staying at the golf club, with all food (and maybe a little drink) included.  I'm specifically invited to fill the position of an experienced official who is retiring, I'm taking that as a real compliment.

I've had a few unusual things happen since my last post, two in particular which are unfortunate, and thankfully pretty rare.  At our local PGA's section championship, early on the morning of the 3rd round, a player approached me.  He was concerned that he had posted the wrong score the previous day, asked if he could borrow a cart to go look again at the holes in question.  I didn't have an assignment for a while yet, so I volunteered to give him a ride.  We went out to the 14th hole (I think), and we found the previous day's hole location (I keep the pin sheets in my clipboard).  He walked about 12 feet past the hole, pantomimed a putting stroke, then back down about 2 feet from the hole and did the same.  Came back with a sad smile, he'd confirmed to himself that the 2 he posted was actually a 3.  His marker and other playing partner were convinced he had made the putt, so he accepted that.  So he went in and DQed himself.  Sad that it happened, but still impressive with his integrity.

The other unusual thing was at a match play event.  Usually we have more matches than officials, so we kind of roam the course, try to be available to answer questions, but we do NOT get involved unless requested by a player.  Those who know match play rules understand that a Player may choose to ignore his Opponent's breach.  But for the finals, we ARE generally assigned to an individual match, and that changes the referee's job.  The referee, when assigned to a specific match, MUST act when he becomes aware of a rules issue.  Its no longer up to a Player to decide whether to enforce a Penalty, that becomes MY job.  So early through the final match, I watched a Player lean down to his ball on the Putting Green and rotate it to align it.  No marker.  That's a breach of 14.1.  So after he his played his putt, I asked him if I had seen correctly.  He realized he HAD rotated the ball without marking, and very gracefully accepted the Penalty stroke that I had to assess.  That's the first time I've had to do that, its not what I'd call fun, but it IS part of doing the job the right way.

 

 

[BirdsAndEagles]

6 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

My "referee season" is nearing an end, just 2 days of high school state finals, and one last local PGA event.  That brings the total to 44 days overall.  I probably will cut back on that a little for next year, but its good to learn where my upper limit is likely to be.

I did book my first event for next year, the Kenridge Invitational at Farmington CC in Charlottesville.  As I understand it, this is one of the top amateur events in this area, 54 holes of stroke play.  The team of rules officials are treated very well, staying at the golf club, with all food (and maybe a little drink) included.  I'm specifically invited to fill the position of an experienced official who is retiring, I'm taking that as a real compliment.

I've had a few unusual things happen since my last post, two in particular which are unfortunate, and thankfully pretty rare.  At our local PGA's section championship, early on the morning of the 3rd round, a player approached me.  He was concerned that he had posted the wrong score the previous day, asked if he could borrow a cart to go look again at the holes in question.  I didn't have an assignment for a while yet, so I volunteered to give him a ride.  We went out to the 14th hole (I think), and we found the previous day's hole location (I keep the pin sheets in my clipboard).  He walked about 12 feet past the hole, pantomimed a putting stroke, then back down about 2 feet from the hole and did the same.  Came back with a sad smile, he'd confirmed to himself that the 2 he posted was actually a 3.  His marker and other playing partner were convinced he had made the putt, so he accepted that.  So he went in and DQed himself.  Sad that it happened, but still impressive with his integrity.

The other unusual thing was at a match play event.  Usually we have more matches than officials, so we kind of roam the course, try to be available to answer questions, but we do NOT get involved unless requested by a player.  Those who know match play rules understand that a Player may choose to ignore his Opponent's breach.  But for the finals, we ARE generally assigned to an individual match, and that changes the referee's job.  The referee, when assigned to a specific match, MUST act when he becomes aware of a rules issue.  Its no longer up to a Player to decide whether to enforce a Penalty, that becomes MY job.  So early through the final match, I watched a Player lean down to his ball on the Putting Green and rotate it to align it.  No marker.  That's a breach of 14.1.  So after he his played his putt, I asked him if I had seen correctly.  He realized he HAD rotated the ball without marking, and very gracefully accepted the Penalty stroke that I had to assess.  That's the first time I've had to do that, its not what I'd call fun, but it IS part of doing the job the right way.

 

 

Wow - that level of integrity with going back the next day to confirm their score and DQ is admirable. Can't say most people would do that.

[dennyjones]

Congrats Dave.   Well deserved!  

[DaveP043]

5 minutes ago, BirdsAndEagles said:

Wow - that level of integrity with going back the next day to confirm their score and DQ is admirable. Can't say most people would do that.

Yeah, I was impressed.  He had made the 36 hole cut, so was in a hotel overnight anyway, but he absolutely did the right thing.

[Shindig]

Dave, I just read through this entire thread.  That's some really cool work you're doing.  I hope to be able to do this at some point (the likely earliest would be years from now).  I have to look into what it costs to be a rules official, and I will need to make sure my rules knowledge is updated and correct too.  Thanks for sharing your story.