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Article on Course Length, Tee Choices - the Whole "Tee it Forward" Idea


bkuehn1952

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I live close enough to Longleaf Golf and Family Club which uses the tee system that the article mentions to where I've played it several times and I have seen people taking the assessment and playing from the appropriate tees:

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Longleaf-ScoreCard-20202.jpg?format=1000

 

I also like the idea of the "combo tees".

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In my club we just have 4 sets of tees. Lady (red), and 3 for men (blue - white - yellow). The yellow one is always really close to the red tees, and the white and blue are normally closer together been the blue one the longest. 

We have a really good player, that used to be a really good scratch golfer in the past, that is 75 years old now but manage himself to keep his index in the single figures.
His drives goes around 200 or less so he no longer reach most greens from the blue tee. One day I suggested him to try the yellow tee, that he would have a lot more fun hitting again short to long irons to the greens in regulation. 
He took my advice and had the best afternoon in years. I think he shot like 72 and was really happy to hit that many greens in regulations.
Next weekend he was right back playing from the blue's. It's funny but I get it, i'm also a scratch player and I love to play from the tips. I love to play the course as hard I can even if I leave myself long irons and woods all day. I know that I will still be playing the blues when I get older like him.   

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21 hours ago, Golfer20 said:

I live close enough to Longleaf Golf and Family Club which uses the tee system that the article mentions to where I've played it several times and I have seen people taking the assessment and playing from the appropriate tees:

Yes. We have a topic on that here.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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On 6/5/2023 at 7:07 PM, iacas said:

If they're just at the start of every fairway… you don't really need a set of tees there, do you? 🙂

Generally I agree, especially for casual rounds with the kids where they can just tee up at any point on the course that is reasonable.

However, doesn’t really work as well if you have an 82 year old who wants to play in a handicap game, and there’s not a good way to calculate their handicap from somewhere in the middle of the fairway.  He plays from the front tees, which are a little too long for him at some courses.

On 6/6/2023 at 8:04 AM, TourSpoon said:

My home course and many others in Florida are getting onto the "Combo" tee train. I am happy to see that as an option

I like the combo tee option that some courses do.

On 6/6/2023 at 9:42 AM, iacas said:

I like combo tees. Easy enough to do from a course ratings perspective, too.

Related to the above, adding a shorter set of tees (family tees, junior tees, whatever the course wants to call them) so the tees are rated would be helpful in some circumstances.

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7 minutes ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

Generally I agree, especially for casual rounds with the kids where they can just tee up at any point on the course that is reasonable.

However, doesn’t really work as well if you have an 82 year old who wants to play in a handicap game, and there’s not a good way to calculate their handicap from somewhere in the middle of the fairway.  He plays from the front tees, which are a little too long for him at some courses.

My point was… if they're at the start of the fairway… can't everyone just agree to tee off from the start of the fairway? Like… within two club lengths of the start of the fairway?

How different could "within two club lengths of the start of the fairway" really be?

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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4 hours ago, iacas said:

My point was… if they're at the start of the fairway… can't everyone just agree to tee off from the start of the fairway? Like… within two club lengths of the start of the fairway?

How different could "within two club lengths of the start of the fairway" really be?

And courses provide slope/rating from two club lengths of the start of the fairway?

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Curious why the Longleaf system has longer rollouts for shorter hitters.  I assumed the variations in the trackman table were supposed to all be related to the variation in clubhead speed between a 1-7 golfer.  Is there a mechanical reason why someone with a lower clubhead speed would hit the ball lower and get more roll out because of it?  Or is this Longleaf system trying to simultaneously handicap the tee yardages for both poor contact (poor mechanics) and also for lower clubhead speeds?

John

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4 hours ago, SG11118 said:

Curious why the Longleaf system has longer rollouts for shorter hitters.  I assumed the variations in the trackman table were supposed to all be related to the variation in clubhead speed between a 1-7 golfer.  Is there a mechanical reason why someone with a lower clubhead speed would hit the ball lower and get more roll out because of it?  Or is this Longleaf system trying to simultaneously handicap the tee yardages for both poor contact (poor mechanics) and also for lower clubhead speeds?

I think your idea about lower trajectories for slower swingers/less skilled players is a good explanation.

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On 6/14/2023 at 12:33 AM, Denny Bang Bang said:

And courses provide slope/rating from two club lengths of the start of the fairway?

People playing at that distance are typically beginners. Or otherwise not keeping a true "score" or whatever. The course rating is often so low that even if they can shoot 90 or something… it's still a really high differential.

The forward most rated tees at Lake View (#7) are 4397 yards and are rated 61.8/106 for men.

The forward most rated tees at Whispering Woods (Red) are 4760 yards and are rated 64.8/121.

Some of the #7 tees at Lake View are at the front of the fairways. The par fives, mostly. Many of them are near the #6 tees.

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Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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I like the idea of having varying tees for varying clubhead speed golfers.  Not crazy about the idea of having special tees for a golfer who hits one drive 225 yards, duffs the next one 75, fats the next one 165, shanks the next one 100, and then hits the next one 225.  If 225 is their driver clubhead speed yardage, they should be using #6 tees.  The whole goal of this system should be to give the golfer a chance to be on the green in regulation if they hit two solid shots.

John

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13 hours ago, iacas said:

People playing at that distance are typically beginners. Or otherwise not keeping a true "score" or whatever. The course rating is often so low that even if they can shoot 90 or something… it's still a really high differential.

The forward most rated tees at Lake View (#7) are 4397 yards and are rated 61.8/106 for men.

The forward most rated tees at Whispering Woods (Red) are 4760 yards and are rated 64.8/121.

Some of the #7 tees at Lake View are at the front of the fairways. The par fives, mostly. Many of them are near the #6 tees.

Sure, generally I agree as I already stated above.  But what about my 82 year old buddy who does like to still play in handicapped events?  My point is, teeing off from two club lengths doesn’t solve everything.  And sure, there will certainly be courses that are just too long for him.

I’ve been to courses with family tees, or whatever you want to call them.  Doesn’t seem to hurt the game or the courses one bit.  Not sure why anyone would have a problem with them (beyond an extra bit of maintenance).

Never heard of Lake View or Whispering Woods, and I don’t think our group will ever play either of them.

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7 hours ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

Sure, generally I agree as I already stated above.  But what about my 82 year old buddy who does like to still play in handicapped events?  My point is, teeing off from two club lengths doesn’t solve everything.  And sure, there will certainly be courses that are just too long for him.

I’ve been to courses with family tees, or whatever you want to call them.  Doesn’t seem to hurt the game or the courses one bit.  Not sure why anyone would have a problem with them (beyond an extra bit of maintenance).

Never heard of Lake View or Whispering Woods, and I don’t think our group will ever play either of them.

I think we should suggest to our courses having more forward tee. There is expense, but it may also attract players. Some courses I have played have already done this. 

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7 hours ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

Sure, generally I agree as I already stated above.  But what about my 82 year old buddy who does like to still play in handicapped events?  My point is, teeing off from two club lengths doesn’t solve everything.  And sure, there will certainly be courses that are just too long for him.

Then he can just play the forward most rated tees. I know of many octogenarians who don’t even go all the way forward.

When Natalie began playing she’d tee off from my driver position. She didn’t need tees let alone a rating.

Your position is so extreme as to be mildly absurd.

The point of the other courses listed is to say the forward tees are already pretty short with low ratings. Play them.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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15 hours ago, iacas said:

Your position is so extreme as to be mildly absurd.

What have I stated in this thread that is “so extreme”?

Stating that family tees don’t hurt the game?  Stating that teeing off from the fairway doesn’t resolve everything?

 I think you’re so hung up on defending your opinion that you’re failing to actually understand what my point/opinion even is.  There’s nothing extreme or absurd about it.

 

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25 minutes ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

What have I stated in this thread that is “so extreme”?

That we should rate sub-3500-yard tees or whatever so that an octogenarian can compete in handicapped events. He can… from a set of rated tees. Have him move back to a whopping 4500 yards or whatever. The course rating system starts to break down at ridiculously short yardages because a scratch golfer hits it defined distances, and at those yardages — 197-yard par fours and the like — stuff gets weird.

That's the extreme - it's the extreme end of what the course rating system is built to handle.

Handicap the match yourself at that point. Tee off wherever you like.

25 minutes ago, Denny Bang Bang said:

I think you’re so hung up on defending your opinion that you’re failing to actually understand what my point/opinion even is. There’s nothing extreme or absurd about it.

No, I'm not hung up on it. I just understand how the course rating system works, and how it starts to break down at short yardages. I think the minimum is 3000 yards, and even there… the course rating gets really low. Stuff starts to get weird.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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I think the current tee markers are archaic. I always felt that women don't get to tee off far enough ahead so that it is fair. Tee markers should go by skill level and not necessarily by gender or age. I'm all for giving the players more options and especially when it would speed up play. I'm only in favor of these changes if it doesn't involve having to reconstruct a bunch of tee boxes. I don't think the courses could afford to do that. Here in the desert, I don't see how they could add more tees because there isn't a place for them and would require too much money and wouldn't be worth the trade off. I love the idea though and think if the course could do it without it costing too much money they should experiment and see if it works.  

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4 hours ago, Randomgolf99 said:

Tee markers should go by skill level and not necessarily by gender or age.

Tee markers don't "go" by much of anything. Nobody forces women to play from the "red" tees or something. My daughter started golf from playing where my tee shots ended up, moved back to the start of the fairway, then the forward-most tees, then the next set back, then the next set back from that. Now she plays most rounds at about 5900 yards, and for the hell of it, she just played a U.S. Open qualifying site from the tees (7300 yards) where they qualified.

Or… play based on how far you hit it:

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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