Live Electronic Scoring, Markers, Paper Scorecards, Signatures

[bkuehn1952]

Jordan's Speith's recent run-in got me thinking about our golf club's tournaments and the recording of scores. Our latest tournament management software (Golf Genius) has a "live scoring" capability.. Several Board members are anxious to implement this feature in 2024. Currently, we have each player exchange his card with another member of his group to act as his marker. The member is responsible for checking his scores and signig his card at the end.

My experience with "live scoring" has one member of each foursome keep score on his smart phone. An app is downloaded for the tournment. At the end of each hole the designated scorer asks each player, "What was your score?" He records each score reported. In theory, if a player says "6" and one or more members of his group think it was a "7", that would be worked out. Each player often keeps a written scorecard as backup. At the end of the round, the scorer advises each player of his total. The player then checks in with the scoring table. A committee member says, "You scored an XX. Is that correct?" The player says yes or no. If yes, the score is posted on the leaderboard. If no, the scores are checked and the corrected score is posted on the leaderboard.

We run small time senior amateur tournaments. The attention given to a player's scoring and the accuracy varies by player and group. No one appears to actively attempt to cheat but I am not entirely sure every score would pass close scrutiny. Electronic scoring will somewhat reduce our administrative tasks (entering each player's hole-by-hole scores). If we dispense with markers and paper scorecards, that will really reduce administrative duties.

Do you all agree that we need to continue to have markers keep a player's scores on paper and require a signature even if we use "live scoring?" As attractive as merely accepting the electronic score without any checking seems to be, I think we need to keep the paper and checks in place.

Anyone have experience with "live scoring" and suggestions for how to use it?

 

Edited February 18 by bkuehn1952
typo

[iacas]

The Hurricane Junior Golf Tour has live scoring on their phones, and players still have to both "sign" the phones at the end of the round to confirm everything. Nothing is official until then, but it does have the advantage of giving everyone a leaderboard, in addition to letting family and friends "watch" from afar.

That said, they have paper cards available as a backup, and sometimes encourage people to use them. You may want to have someone in the group keep a paper card, too, as a backup. Even if that paper card is switched every six holes (in threesomes) or something.

[Wendy Dominick]

I've often been the one to enter all 4 scores hole by hole on Golf Genius. I've often forgotten to hit "enter" or made some other error. Others have done the same. Fortunately I always keep a paper scorecard and usually others do as well. I would NOT want my final score to be based solely on electronic scoring.

[snapfade]

In the amateur "tour" I play in occasionally, we use electronic scoring as well as paper.  With the electronic version you can score yourself, or a member of the group can keep all of the scores. The paper score card is the official one for record though. The electronic  just acts more or less like a leaderboard.  There's always the, "Hey what did you get on 7?" There was discussion about this on The Wrap the other night if paper scoring was even needed on the PGAT with shot link and so forth. My opinion is, you are responsible for your own score, not another player, or a computer.  It's golf, its what we do. 

[Vinsk]

DQ is stupid. Correct the score, give a penalty and move on.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

DQ is stupid. Correct the score, give a penalty and move on.

DQ is well deserved given the player's burden and responsibility here is so ridiculously low.

The penalty is given: it's disqualification. It's a game where the lowest score wins, so certifying your score matters. A DQ is a strong disincentive to shirk your duties.

[saevel25]

39 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

DQ is stupid. Correct the score, give a penalty and move on.

What if one or two stroke penalty drops you from 2nd to 3rd. So, the incentive is, if I do not get caught, I get a bigger paycheck, otherwise I stay where I am at. If I get DQ'd I get nothing. 

I say DQ is the best incentive to not cheat. I am perfectly fine with it. 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I say DQ is the best incentive to not cheat. I am perfectly fine with it. 

And I know you're not saying Jordan cheated, but… the paper card is the "scorecard of record." It's the source. So, it has to be right.

[StuM]

I make a ton of typos using my finger on my phone.  It would be dangerous to have me do the live scoring.

Live score is fine but it needs paper to supplement it.

[Vinsk]

43 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

I say DQ is the best incentive to not cheat. I am perfectly fine with

So how many penalties result in a DQ? You’re implying that stroke penalties don’t provide incentive? Why not just DQ any player who creates a penalty that gave an advantage?

[iacas]

42 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

So how many penalties result in a DQ? You’re implying that stroke penalties don’t provide incentive? Why not just DQ any player who creates a penalty that gave an advantage?

Because the other penalties are in line with playing the game. The penalty for other breaches is inline with how many strokes (plus a little) it would have taken you to get out of the situation, or they allow you to complete play of the hole. It's not like you're misleading people when you hit your ball into a penalty area and take relief.

In other words… it's not the same thing at all. Look up the other DQ type penalties — they're for egregious acts.

And, yes, failing to certify that you took a 4 instead of a 3 is an egregious act.

And… if you want, write a better rule, and one that applies at all levels of the game. Good luck. Also, read this:

P.S. The historical context carries some weight, but even throwing that out… it's a good rule.

[SG11118]

Changing this rule would open up a lot more scoring issues.  The players themselves are in the best position to know what they and their playing group are shooting on each hole.  I'm fine with it staying as is.

[Vinsk]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

And… if you want, write a better rule, and one that applies at all levels of the game. Good luck. Also, read this:

Don’t have to re-write it at all. Just change the DQ to actual score +2 shot penalty. Done. Making a goof isn’t the same as pulling a Reed or a Gary Player move. 

[iacas]

4 minutes ago, Vinsk said:

Don’t have to re-write it at all. Just change the DQ to actual score +2 shot penalty. Done. Making a goof isn’t the same as pulling a Reed or a Gary Player move. 

Nah… you've gotta protect the sanctity of scoring. At the pro level especially, it can affect the cut line, and tens of thousands of dollars in placement in the tournament.

The penalty should be severe.

One of the topics in the Principles of the Rules of Golf booklet is that the penalty should cover any advantage that's possibly gained, and so shaving strokes should be dealt with harshly.

Again, look at the other DQ type penalties. This one fits.

[saevel25]

4 hours ago, Vinsk said:

So how many penalties result in a DQ? You’re implying that stroke penalties don’t provide incentive? Why not just DQ any player who creates a penalty that gave an advantage?

From the USGA…

”Serious misconduct” is player behaviour that is so far removed from what is expected in golf that the most severe sanction of removing a player from the competition is justified.

so you’re telling me that purposely writing down the wrong score is not serious misconduct.

I know what you are going to say, what if they accidentally do it. But, we all know the rules of golf are there to de-incentivize those intently try to break the rules. It’s nearly impossible to prove intent. Signing the wrong score should be a disqualification. Because this is to protect from those who would do it with intent.

[DeadMan]

I feel strongly that this should remain the way it is now. You cannot rely on unpaid volunteers to keep your score for you. And, speaking from experience, the volunteers are not going to want to ask if the whiff they thought they saw was actually a whiff or a practice swing. There are so many errors on shot link, live leaderboards, and the broadcast that it's hard to trust anything outside of the official scorecard. I think the players would even say they should be ultimately responsible for their own scores. 

I also support DQ instead of a 2-stroke penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard. Trying to figure out the intent of signing an incorrect scorecard is pure folly. I can accept that Spieth wasn't trying to cheat, but if it's someone dogged by cheating allegations, I don't think we would accept 2 strokes instead of a disqualification. 

[snapfade]

38 minutes ago, DeadMan said:

I feel strongly that this should remain the way it is now. You cannot rely on unpaid volunteers to keep your score for you. And, speaking from experience, the volunteers are not going to want to ask if the whiff they thought they saw was actually a whiff or a practice swing. There are so many errors on shot link, live leaderboards, and the broadcast that it's hard to trust anything outside of the official scorecard. I think the players would even say they should be ultimately responsible for their own scores. 

I also support DQ instead of a 2-stroke penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard. Trying to figure out the intent of signing an incorrect scorecard is pure folly. I can accept that Spieth wasn't trying to cheat, but if it's someone dogged by cheating allegations, I don't think we would accept 2 strokes instead of a disqualification. 

I agree. It takes the guess work out of it. If it was Patrick Reed we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[Vinsk]

We have warnings on windshield shades to not operate vehicle when in place but we can’t have anyone in the tent present at signing to ensure mistakes like this don’t happen. 🙄