Water in Bunker

[billchao]

50 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

When you are penalized for hitting into the sand trap the penalty is having to hit it out of the sand, not out of three inches of water. A sand trap is not the same as a water hazard. A sand trap is not supposed to be under water. It is a unique condition caused  by weather and poor drainage.

Take that logic and apply it to temporary water in the general area. The general area is not supposed to be under water. You are entitled free relief to play from another part of the general area that’s not under water.

You are entitled to free relief to play from another area of the bunker. Bunkers are limited in size, and the fact that you were not able to play out of the same bunker no closer to the hole was unfortunate, but how does that possibly equate to “I should be able to play out of the grass instead with no penalty?” It doesn’t make logical sense.

The ACC accommodates this by allowing the drop out of the bunker for one penalty stroke instead of the usual two, to account for the difference in lie.

[DaveP043]

13 hours ago, anaveragehacker said:

I love golf, but we have some really dumb rules. Like this one, you get a penalty stroke because it rained. 

 

13 hours ago, GolfLug said:

Could course committee have an MLR option to declare this bunker GUR? 

 

11 hours ago, anaveragehacker said:

When you are penalized for hitting into the sand trap the penalty is having to hit it out of the sand, not out of three inches of water. A sand trap is not the same as a water hazard. A sand trap is not supposed to be under water. It is a unique condition caused  by weather and poor drainage. Most local leagues like ours allow the free drop in this type of situation, as long as there is no area in the bunker to legally drop. This is what I’m talking about, sometimes the official rules of golf don’t align with common sense. 

You get a penalty stroke because your local committee didn't do their job, they didn't address the specific conditions using the tools available to them within the Rules.  The rulemakers contemplated just this situation, bunkers being so filled with Temporary Water that they're unplayable.  The only way to address it "fairly" is to allow free relief outside the bunker, and they do NOT want to allow that on an everyday basis.  So they write the rules as it is, and allow the Committee to override the normal rule in the rare instance where the bunker really is full.  That's what your "local league" does, they invoke Model Local Rule F-16, which treats flooded bunkers as both GUR and as General Area.  Relief from GUR in the General Area allows relief in the General Area (i.e. outside the re-defined bunker).  Its quite a logical way to approach a relatively rare situation.

Separately, consider your concern about temporary Water in the fairway.  I've seen situations in relatively level fairways where the Nearest Point of Complete Relief  from Temporary Water is 30 or 40 yards away, further from the green, even in the rough.   

[anaveragehacker]

Someone asked what I propose. I think if the bunker is full of rainwater, you get to drop it with no penalty directly in back of the bunker, so you still have a tricky shot of chipping over the bunker. People are talking about local committees and such which we just don’t have at our level. My league and playing partners gave the free drop with no issue. My original purpose of this post was just to understand what the “real” rule is, and I now know. But now I also want to encourage people to see that many long time golf rules are outdated and illogical, and hopefully encourage people to push for change. They made some changes in the last few years, so I’m hopeful the game I love will improve if enough people speak out. A lot to hope for posting in a little forum I know, but you have to start somewhere.

[DaveP043]

13 hours ago, anaveragehacker said:

Here’s what I think is the dumbest rule in golf, and all sports for that matter - professionals playing for millions of dollars in a tournament have to carry around a little pencil and scorecard to keep their score and sign it, when there are big scoreboards all over the course and on tv. 

Its simple, YOU are responsible for reporting YOUR score correctly, at every level of golf.  Do you imagine a top pro would really trust anyone else with his score?

11 hours ago, anaveragehacker said:

This is what I’m talking about, sometimes the official rules of golf don’t align with common sense. That’s why they are finally starting to change them. For example, when wind blows your ball off the green. That was a stupid rule. People being able to call the tv network to say they saw a players ball move. That was a stupid rule. I’m just saying, these are rules made up a long time ago, and it’s time to modernize them.

Without getting too far from the original post, the Rules have been revised every 4 years for decades.  They're continually evaluated, and most changes are in response to changes within the game.  BTW, if wind blows your ball off the green before you've lifted and replaced it, you play from wherever it ends up.  The TV call ins weren't a rule of golf issue, they were a PGA Tour issue, all in an effort to get the call right.  

[GolfLug]

24 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

People are talking about local committees and such which we just don’t have at our level. 

Y'all can appoint a few good men from your own league that have proper understanding of the rules or at least access the USGA rules (book, online, etc.) when necessary. They don't have to have some kind of official certification or blessings from any outside org/entity to my knowledge. 

35 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

My league and playing partners gave the free drop with no issue. 

Yes, y'all could have collectively declared it GUR under F-16 as @DaveP043 posted as the self appointed committee and you would have been fine to drop outside of this particular bunker. Remember to not declare all bunkers as GUR on a wholesale basis. It is case by case only. 

Now you might say 'who's got time for all that' (going around which bunkers should be declared GUR) then I can somewhat understand  your pain but at the same time you cannot fault the tedium of rules  enforcement as a general reason to declare them 'lacking in common sense'.  

[anaveragehacker]

Someone asked would pros accept someone else keeping score. It’s done in every other sport. That’s what scorekeepers are for. It’s an antiquated rule. It’s fine for non-professionals. 
I feel like there is a lot of resistance to rule in golf, as if these rules were brought down on stone tablets by Moses.

[billchao]

36 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

Someone asked what I propose. I think if the bunker is full of rainwater, you get to drop it with no penalty directly in back of the bunker, so you still have a tricky shot of chipping over the bunker.

So here’s the thing, you’ve treated the bunker as if it were GUR, which would actually be the appropriate course of action except you and your playing partners are not authorized to determine that for yourselves. The Committee in this case would be the golf course and in an ideal world, they would have handled their responsibilities and told you at the beginning of the round that X bunkers are under water, treat them as GUR. I’m actually ok with how you handled the situation in a casual round TBH but this is the rules forum and you asked about a rules clarification so there’s a specific procedure for that.

As for your proposed rule, I don’t agree with the logic at all for the reason I outlined in my previous post. You are trading a bunker lie for a lie in grass for no penalty. And also, there are already rules in place that address the exact situation you found yourself in, including relief options for if the bunker was appropriately marked as GUR or not.

[anaveragehacker]

12 minutes ago, billchao said:

So here’s the thing, you’ve treated the bunker as if it were GUR, which would actually be the appropriate course of action except you and your playing partners are not authorized to determine that for yourselves. The Committee in this case would be the golf course and in an ideal world, they would have handled their responsibilities and told you at the beginning of the round that X bunkers are under water, treat them as GUR. I’m actually ok with how you handled the situation in a casual round TBH but this is the rules forum and you asked about a rules clarification so there’s a specific procedure for that.

As for your proposed rule, I don’t agree with the logic at all for the reason I outlined in my previous post. You are trading a bunker lie for a lie in grass for no penalty. And also, there are already rules in place that address the exact situation you found yourself in, including relief options for if the bunker was appropriately marked as GUR or not.

I guess we’re kind of getting into semantics here, but you state “trading a bunker lie for a grass lie”. I would argue that a bunker under water is no longer a bunker. It is basically a small pond where there isn’t supposed to be one. The course has an unplayable condition due to weather and poor maintenance. Hitting a ball out of three inches of water is not a realistic option any more than hitting through a temporary grandstand is. Just my opinion.

[klineka]

8 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

I guess we’re kind of getting into semantics here, but you state “trading a bunker lie for a grass lie”. I would argue that a bunker under water is no longer a bunker. It is basically a small pond where there isn’t supposed to be one. The course has an unplayable condition due to weather and poor maintenance. Hitting a ball out of three inches of water is not a realistic option any more than hitting through a temporary grandstand is. Just my opinion.

Temporary grandstands are in the general area though, a bunker is not so your relief options are different. 

I don't really understand what is so difficult about this. 

You should be more upset with whoever organizes/runs your league for not implementing GUR, not the rule itself. Especially since this is a league and if it's at the same course every time it's likely that this isn't the first time the bunker has filled up completely with water.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, anaveragehacker said:

But now I also want to encourage people to see that many long time golf rules are outdated and illogical, and hopefully encourage people to push for change.

Here's the thing, the Rules are fine here, the problem is at the local Committee (or lack of Committee) level.  The basic Rule is appropriate for most Temporary Water in a Bunker situations.  Indeed, it offers a bit more flexibility than the Rule for Temporary Water in the General Area offers, in that you're allowed to find the Point of Maximum Available Relief, instead of requiring Complete Relief.  And for more unusual circumstances, the Rules offer an alternative in for form of a Model Local Rule.  They don't want every single player to have the authority to claim "I have no possible relief in this bunker, I'll just take it out for free", they want that authority to be at a higher level.

I speak only for myself, but the more I learn about the Rules, the more I respect the way they've been put together, and the consistency of concepts throughout.  Its easy to single out one rule in isolation that you dislike, but when you see how the rules fit together as a whole things often make a lot more sense.  No doubt, Rules should be reviewed and improved, really smart people are continually doing just that, looking for cracks and loopholes.  But the changes that actually happen are really tested to see if they actually improve things, change for the sake of change just isn't going to happen.

 

[billchao]

25 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

I guess we’re kind of getting into semantics here, but you state “trading a bunker lie for a grass lie”.

We’re discussing rules. By definition, it’s going to involve semantics.

You hit your ball in a bunker, which under normal conditions, you’d have a bunker lie. If you declare your ball unplayable, you would be allowed to drop outside of the bunker for two penalty strokes. You happened to hit it under water in said bunker due to ACC. Because of the ACC, your relief option outside of the bunker could be taken for only one penalty shot. Again, the stroke is added because you would have changed your lie from from a bunker to the general area.

30 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

I would argue that a bunker under water is no longer a bunker.

And I would make the same argument, but again, that’s on the committee for not doing their job and marking it as GUR and not at the discretion of each individual golfer.

At this point all I can gather is that you don’t like the particular situation you found yourself in, but shit happens. We’ve all been there one way or another.

[anaveragehacker]

What is this committee I keep hearing about? We’re a small league playing at a county course. And these are temporary issues that may be gone in a day or two. In any case, I wish more people agreed with me. It seems that trying to convince golfers to modernize rules is like trying to change the Bible. The safeguard is that you have to check with your  opponent to make sure he agrees with the drop, why should you need a committee for that?

Edited May 6 by anaveragehacker

[DaveP043]

1 minute ago, anaveragehacker said:

What is this committee I keep hearing about? We’re a small league playing at a county course.

I suggest you actually read some of the Rules, either online or on the USGA (or R&A) phone app.  Here's the Definition of Committee:

Quote

The person or group in charge of the competition or the course.

You have a small league, whoever is in charge of that league is the Committee.  This would be the same person (group) who might decide that you should play Lift Clean and Place (Modal Local Rule E-3), to institute the "leaf rule", (MLR F-14), or that you should move a ball out of aerification holes (MLR E-4).  

[klineka]

6 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

What is this committee I keep hearing about? We’re a small league playing at a county course. 

Just because it's a small league at a county course doesn't mean their couldn't be a small group of people who take on the role/responsibility of ensuring the rules are properly enforced and being the rules committee for your league

 

8 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

And these are temporary issues that may be gone in a day or two. 

That's the whole point of GUR. It's a temporary thing. Also like I mentioned before, since you're playing on the same course it's highly likely this isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened to a bunker on this course.

 

9 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

In any case, I wish more people agreed with me. It seems that trying to convince golfers to modernize rules is like trying to change the Bible. 

There's nothing that needs changed though. There is the rule for how the situation is supposed to be handled as well as an alternative for how it could have been handled differently via a committee. Just because your league chooses not to have a committee doesn't mean the rules of golf need changed for everyone.

 

11 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

The safeguard is that you have to check with your  opponent to make sure he agrees with the drop, why should you need a committee for that?

Absurd logic. You and your opponent can't just agree on rules and make things up as you go. If it's just a 1v1 match for fun, sure do whatever you want. In an actual league with other competitors, no shot. Everyone needs to play by the same rules.

How would you feel if someone else in the league took a casual drop on a different hole and their playing partner agreed with it but you didn't agree with it and you found out about it later?

[anaveragehacker]

What is this committee I keep hearing about? We’re a small league playing at a county course. And these are temporary issues that may be gone in a day or two. In any case, I wish more people agreed with me. It seems that trying to convince golfers to modernize rules is like trying to change the Bible.

You guys are so serious it kind of proves my point. Other sports make adjustments for  field conditions etc during lower level play. This isn’t life and death here, it’s sport. No need to keep arguing. I have my opinion and you have yours.

[iacas]

@anaveragehacker, you’ve been ignorant this whole time and now you’re being disrespectful.

Not a great combo.

You asked what the rules were and we told you. You complained about them and we told you why they were the way they are.

The “who is the committee?” Question has been answered a few times.

Dave and I are Rules Officials and the other people replying know the rules far better than you, so the fact that we are all disagreeing with you should say something.

this thread is going nowhere and your original question has been answered several times.

[klineka]

6 minutes ago, anaveragehacker said:

No need to keep arguing. I have my opinion and you have yours.

Ahh the old classic "nobody agrees with me so I don't want to talk about it anymore"

[EnterSandTrap]

On 5/5/2024 at 6:35 PM, anaveragehacker said:

A sand trap is not supposed to have 3 inches of water in it. To me that’s temporary, casual water. Just like if your ball lands in a deep rain puddle in the middle of the fairway. I would have gladly hit out of any spot in that bunker. I understand that it’s a different rule. I just think it’s a dumb rule. You are penalized because it rained. 
Here’s what I think is the dumbest rule in golf, and all sports for that matter - professionals playing for millions of dollars in a tournament have to carry around a little pencil and scorecard to keep their score and sign it, when there are big scoreboards all over the course and on tv. Can you imagine the Knicks losing because they didn’t count their score correctly? Like I said, I love the game, but it’s time to move into the 21st century already. 

I guess when you distill it down, a sand trap isn’t supposed to have a golf ball in it either.