Jack vs. Tiger: Who's the Greatest Golfer?

[onthehunt526]

2 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

Did Tiger ACTUALLY do that? Again, asking. That number seems awfully high...

Not over a ten-year period. In 2000, he won half the tournaments he played in (10 out of 20, 9 PGA TOUR, 1 European Tour in Germany). He did win 14 out of 46 (which is now 14 out of 70, still remarkable) from 1997-2008.

Jack never had a 12 year stretch where he won 14 majors. Is 18 still more than 14. By number, yes. By all of the evidence to prove Tiger is the GOAT. No. Tiger is the GOAT... I just hope Tiger somehow gets to 19 majors... Maybe even winning one at 50, stealing Jack's record for longest between first major win and final major win. (Yes, Jack holds that record)

What's funny is, if he wins the Masters next week... He actually would move to second on that list.

[GrandStranded]

14 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

Not over a ten-year period. In 2000, he won half the tournaments he played in (10 out of 20, 9 PGA TOUR, 1 European Tour in Germany). He did win 14 out of 46 (which is now 14 out of 70, still remarkable) from 1997-2008.

Jack never had a 12 year stretch where he won 14 majors. Is 18 still more than 14. By number, yes. By all of the evidence to prove Tiger is the GOAT. No. Tiger is the GOAT... I just hope Tiger somehow gets to 19 majors... Maybe even winning one at 50, stealing Jack's record for longest between first major win and final major win. (Yes, Jack holds that record)

What's funny is, if he wins the Masters next week... He actually would move to second on that list.

Gosh, you guys love you some Tiger here. In the predict the Masters poll, Tiger was getting 30% in both questions asked at the time I voted. If ever there was a place to sell Tiger merchandise, this is it!!! LOL

BTW Just for arguments sake, that 14 out of 70 may never look better then it does right now. Could be a long time before even one more. Just saying, he's no kid, and as I've learned here, todays players are better then ever.

Edited March 29, 2018 by GrandStranded

[onthehunt526]

6 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

 Just saying, he's no kid, and as I've learned here, todays players are better then ever.

That's what would make it even more remarkable. The "kids" (JT, Rory, Spieth, Rickie, Jon Rahm) are much better than when Tiger started. So he has to work harder, but Tiger isn't done winning majors, yet.

[GrandStranded]

16 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

That's what would make it even more remarkable. The "kids" (JT, Rory, Spieth, Rickie, Jon Rahm) are much better than when Tiger started. So he has to work harder, but Tiger isn't done winning majors, yet.

We shall see. He has to show he can still do it. He hasn't made it easy on himself the last few years, between swing changes, injuries, marital issues, arrests, drug and "sexual" addictions, surgeries, etc. If he's even able to win a PGA Tour tournament, I'll be impressed.

Edited March 29, 2018 by GrandStranded

[onthehunt526]

3 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

We shall see. He has to show he can still do it. He hasn't made it easy on himself the last few years, between swing changes, injuries, marital issues, arrests, drug addictions, surgeries, etc. If he's even able to win a PGA Tour tournament, I'll be impressed.

Somehow, I think he'll get a TOUR win in the near future. Even if he doesn't get to put on his Green Jacket for the fifth time.

[MuniGrit]

11 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

We shall see. He has to show he can still do it. He hasn't made it easy on himself the last few years, between swing changes, injuries, marital issues, arrests, drug addictions, surgeries, etc. If he's even able to win a PGA Tour tournament, I'll be impressed.

Yeah, Haney was on a podcast I like the other day talking about the Masters. He said he expects him to win a tournament just not the Master's this year since he is still struggling with the big stick he will be forced to hit due to some trees you have to get passed. He mentioned how hard it is for people to realize he hasn't won a green jacket since 2005 and they have planted several trees that took out Tiger's bail out off the tee that he had at one point.

[GrandStranded]

1 minute ago, MuniGrit said:

Yeah, Haney was on a podcast I like the other day talking about the Masters. He said he expects him to win a tournament just not the Master's this year since he is still struggling with the big stick he will be forced to hit due to some trees you have to get passed. He mentioned how hard it is for people to realize he hasn't won a green jacket since 2005 and they have planted several trees that took out Tiger's bail out off the tee that he had at one point.

Don't tell the fan boys that... they want no part of it. Most are probably figuring he'll pass Jack's record of 18 majors within a year or two.

[Dr. Manhattan]

10 minutes ago, GrandStranded said:

Don't tell the fan boys that... they want no part of it. Most are probably figuring he'll pass Jack's record of 18 majors within a year or two.

 

You seem to be a big fan of straw man arguments. I don't think anyone assumes Tiger will do anything at this point. Hasn't won a major in 10 years. I think he can win another regular Tour event at some point if he stays healthy. His health is a huge question and will remain a huge question for the rest of his career. 

[3puttglenn]

5 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

Not trying to argue here, simply asking. If Tiger is blessed with continued good health, and goes on to play another 10 years or so, yet wins only 5-6 more tournaments, none of them majors... History would consider his era from 1997 thru about 2027. Would you still feel the same way?

 Why wouldn't we.... if tiger wins 5 more events he will be the all time leader in pga tour wins passing sam snead by 2..... And would it really surprise anyone if tiger won again?

[iacas]

Stick to the topic, @GrandStranded.

And, I second this:

7 hours ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

You seem to be a big fan of straw man arguments. I don't think anyone assumes Tiger will do anything at this point. Hasn't won a major in 10 years. I think he can win another regular Tour event at some point if he stays healthy. His health is a huge question and will remain a huge question for the rest of his career. 

If Tiger plays 10 more years and doesn't win a damn thing, he's the GOAT IMO. His record already surpasses Jack's; everything from here on out is gravy.

[turtleback]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

You chose to end it when you closed your mind off to new thoughts and ideas. You're going by what you feel or think, it seems, not considering actual information or facts or even the types of things Jack Nicklaus himself has said.

Maybe.

I'm sure it's slightly different for everyone.

FWIW, as long as the factor is 1.25, that's enough to basically tie Tiger with Jack at 18, and then given the weight of Tiger's other achievements… tough not to vote for Tiger.

Others would say it's irrelevant. Even at a weighting factor of 1… 14 < 18, but Tiger's other achievements are enough to push him over the edge.

Others might say as high as 3x - that it's three times more difficult to win a major now than it was in the 60s. That's too high for my tastes, but I can see where they're getting that number. In that case, 52 is quite a bit more than 18.

1.25 is pretty low. The fields are definitely at least 25% stronger now.

Personally I think it varies greatly by event and the factor goes from maybe 10x to close to 1x as the years pass.  Jack's first BO win against a field that only included half of the top ten on the money list compared to, say, Tiger's last major has to be pretty close to 10x.  And then when we look at some of the fields that his competitors won against to establish their 'greatness - which some argue outweigh more contemporary players - it is even higher.  E.g., Gary Players first BO that had 3 Americans no one ever heard of.

16 hours ago, iacas said:

Jack didn't really "dominate" like Tiger did.

C'mon, @GrandStranded… you're gonna upset @turtleback, or at least demonstrate how poorly you've read his posts. Or not read them at all.

Jack was pretty good for a long time. Tiger dominated like no other golfer, against the stiffest competition by anyone who "did pretty darn well" even for a little (any of the people you named).

Nah, I stopped caring about what he says long ago.  He is more interested in being cute than having a real discussion.

16 hours ago, GrandStranded said:

Not trying to argue here, simply asking. If Tiger is blessed with continued good health, and goes on to play another 10 years or so, yet wins only 5-6 more tournaments, none of them majors... History would consider his era from 1997 thru about 2027. Would you still feel the same way?

The funny thing is that NO ONE has used Jack's out years to try to diminish his achievements.  The serious folks generally cut off at 1986 while other Jack supporters (see, we are secure enough to be polite, not having to call names to be cute or thinking it buttresses their opinion) call that an outlier and want to cut off after 1980.  What NO ONE has done is make a serious argument watering down his win rate by including the 59 majors he played in after the '86 Masters.  

15 hours ago, iacas said:

Of course. He dominated for a sufficiently long period of time. Past tense - "dominated."

Gee  dominated for sufficiently long.  Where have I heard that?  LOL

10 hours ago, 3puttglenn said:

 Why wouldn't we.... if tiger wins 5 more events he will be the all time leader in pga tour wins passing sam snead by 2..... And would it really surprise anyone if tiger won again?

Well, Jack's first cut at what it would take to be GOAT after he turned pro was he had to beat Snead's record.  Of course if we compare Tiger's wins and Sam's wins under a consistent set of criteria of what gets counted, as it applies to team events and small field events, Tiger passed Sam long ago - even with no account being taken in field strength differences.

[Dr. Manhattan]

1 hour ago, turtleback said:

Well, Jack's first cut at what it would take to be GOAT after he turned pro was he had to beat Snead's record.  Of course if we compare Tiger's wins and Sam's wins under a consistent set of criteria of what gets counted, as it applies to team events and small field events, Tiger passed Sam long ago - even with no account being taken in field strength differences.

 

Yep, good article and research about that issue here:

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/tiger-woods-actually-ahead-sam-snead-pga-tour-wins

I don't know if Tiger can win another major, but IF he stays healthy (and that's a huge IF) I believe he will pass Snead's 82...which seems appropriate considering Snead's 82 is a bogus number in the first place.

[onthehunt526]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

 

Yep, good article and research about that issue here:

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/tiger-woods-actually-ahead-sam-snead-pga-tour-wins

I don't know if Tiger can win another major, but IF he stays healthy (and that's a huge IF) I believe he will pass Snead's 82...which seems appropriate considering Snead's 82 is a bogus number in the first place.

If the driver and irons cooperate he'll win next week. He's the GOAT. He'll win another major. Just don't tell that to Brandel.

[Dr. Manhattan]

18 minutes ago, onthehunt526 said:

If the driver and irons cooperate he'll win next week. He's the GOAT. He'll win another major. Just don't tell that to Brandel.

Brandel keeps referring to him as GOAT/BOAT on Twitter, so I think he's on the same page as a lot of people these days. He is happy to see Tiger going back to his older swing thoughts instead of the stuff he was doing with Foley/Comey.

[onthehunt526]

1 minute ago, Dr. Manhattan said:

Brandel keeps referring to him as GOAT/BOAT on Twitter, so I think he's on the same page as a lot of people these days. He is happy to see Tiger going back to his older swing thoughts instead of the stuff he was doing with Foley/Comey.

His swing in the Harmon/Haney days won him 14 majors. 

Yes, it tore up his knee and back... But, the positions of the Harmon swing won him the Tiger Slam. 

I'm no swing expert, but it does look more Harmon/Haney than Foley/Como. If that's the case, the kids better watch out.

Oh, and by the way, Scotty knows the greens at Augusta. He hasn't had Scotty at a major since 2010.

[iacas]

I think Tiger could have won swinging like Eamonn Darcy and Jim Furyk’s mutant baby.

[onthehunt526]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

I think Tiger could have won swinging like Eamonn Darcy and Jim Furyk’s mutant baby.

Yes. He's just that good of an athlete. 

This is most of the reason, I believe he will win again. Soon. 

[MuniGrit]

1 hour ago, onthehunt526 said:

If the driver and irons cooperate he'll win next week. He's the GOAT. He'll win another major. Just don't tell that to Brandel.

The difference now vs 05 and before is the above applies to many guys.