Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[MS256]

I'm surprised that nobody on this thread hasn't or doesn't play against some of those women. How they faired against them would carry some weight for discussion.

The closest I know of is a scratch golfer I know played a few rounds with a college player that did play in the US Women's Open and I heard she had a good first round but I never heard anything after that so I would assume she probably missed the cut or didn't do too well.

The scratch I know was very impressed with her game and said she hit the ball almost as long as he did (but that doesn't tell me much either)...But he did beat her by a stroke or two each time.

Not much to go on since it's hearsay and I don't even know that she was completely focused during their rounds. Plus I really don't know how good she really is.

Surely somebody else has a first hand experience that could give a clue how well they would play against men.

[rkim291968]

I'm surprised that nobody on this thread hasn't or doesn't play against some of those women. How they faired against them would carry some weight for discussion.

The closest I know of is a scratch golfer I know played a few rounds with a college player that did play in the US Women's Open and I heard she had a good first round but I never heard anything after that so I would assume she probably missed the cut or didn't do too well.

The scratch I know was very impressed with her game and said she hit the ball almost as long as he did (but that doesn't tell me much either)...But he did beat her by a stroke or two each time.

Not much to go on since it's hearsay and I don't even know that she was completely focused during their rounds. Plus I really don't know how good she really is.

Surely somebody else has a first hand experience that could give a clue how well they would play against men.

There was a post in this thread who (1 handicapper) played against a few LPGA players & a college player.   You missed his post.   In a nut shell, he said any LPGA player should kick male scratcher's butt.

One thing I'd point out (perhaps, someone already did) is that with the advent of Asian players who practice for a living at very young age and come to LPGA, the level of LPGA tournament playing have improved quite a bit.    It will be even tougher today for male scratch golfer to do well.   Only one way to find out if you are a scratch golfer.   Have an operation, petition LPGA, and compete against them to see where you'd be.

[MS256]

There was a post in this thread who (1 handicapper) played against a few LPGA players & a college player.   You missed his post.   In a nut shell, he said any LPGA player should kick male scratcher's butt.

One thing I'd point out (perhaps, someone already did) is that with the advent of Asian players who practice for a living at very young age and come to LPGA, the level of LPGA tournament playing have improved quite a bit.    It will be even tougher today for male scratch golfer to do well.   Only one way to find out if you are a scratch golfer.   Have an operation, petition LPGA, and compete against them to see where you'd be.

Thanks. I didn't see that. It's a long thread.

[GingerGolfer]

I agree that a male scratch golfer could probably keep his card on the LPGA. The distance advantage I think would make up for a lot of things that the pros have eliminated from their game (big misses, an occasional chunk or thin), A guy who hits the ball average (say 280) would easily have irons into most of the par 5s and have a good shot at driving some greens. When he's hitting 9 iron and the ladies are hitting 7 or 6...thats a big difference.

[David in FL]

This is really about numbers and math......a "scratch golfer" is defined as someone who can play to a zero course handicap on any course.

So, having a little too much time on my hands last night, I took a look at that and compared it to actual LPGA tournament results.  I picked 5 LPGA tournaments at absolute random.  I researched the men's course ratings for them and then looked at the LPGA tournament results.

Here's what I came up with for a theoretical scratch golfer who did NOT play to his defined expectation, but rather exceeded the course rating by one stroke for every round he played.

Tournament Yds / Course Rating Cut Line Scratch Result *

Kia Classic                                                6,593 / 72.7                                 147                   Missed cut by 1

Kingsmill Championship                            6,379 / 70.9                                 145                   288 = T44

Wegmans Championship                          6,530 / 70.7                                 150                   288 = T15

Safeway Classic                                        6,465 / 71.1                                 142                   Missed cut by 2

Marathon Classic                                       6,428 / 71.2                                 144                   288 = T68

*  Assumes  +1  to course rating each round

This "guy" made the cut 60% of the time, playing relatively mediocre golf by true scratch standards.   These courses are short and pretty easy with only Aviara Golf Club at the Kia Classic playing even close to 6,600 yards with 3 of the 5 courses rated below par for the men.  Does he keep his card and make a living?  I think so......  If he manages to simply play to the course ratings, he does very well indeed.

[Jeremie Boop]

This is really about numbers and math......a "scratch golfer" is defined as someone who can play to a zero course handicap on any course.

So, having a little too much time on my hands last night, I took a look at that and compared it to actual LPGA tournament results.  I picked 5 LPGA tournaments at absolute random.  I researched the men's course ratings for them and then looked at the LPGA tournament results.

Here's what I came up with for a theoretical scratch golfer who did NOT play to his defined expectation, but rather exceeded the course rating by one stroke for every round he played.

Tournament                                       Yds / Course Rating                       Cut Line                Scratch Result *

Kia Classic                                                6,593 / 72.7                                 147                   Missed cut by 1

Kingsmill Championship                            6,379 / 70.9                                 145                   288 = T44

Wegmans Championship                          6,530 / 70.7                                 150                   288 = T15

Safeway Classic                                        6,465 / 71.1                                 142                   Missed cut by 2

Marathon Classic                                       6,428 / 71.2                                 144                   288 = T68

*  Assumes  +1  to course rating each round

This "guy" made the cut 60% of the time, playing relatively mediocre golf by true scratch standards.   These courses are short and pretty easy with only Aviara Golf Club at the Kia Classic playing even close to 6,600 yards with 3 of the 5 courses rated below par for the men.  Does he keep his card and make a living?  I think so......  If he manages to simply play to the course ratings, he does very well indeed.

This is kind of similar to what I posted that the 100th woman on the money list averages over par with about a 73. The scratch golfer would be pretty much playing about a stroke lower I would think.

[9iron]

I have played with three female college players. One played at Wisconsin, one at Bucknell, and the third at Central Florida.  They were all different. The girls from Wisconsin and Bucknell I played about even with, but the girl from Central Florida was at least 3 to 4 shots better than me (and the other girls). The girl from Central Florida was very good, but not in the same league as the very good male players from this area. There are different levels of player, obviously.

I still contend the absolute best men's players in any major metro area in the USA, players with no tour status of any kind, are plenty good enough to compete very well with LPGA players.

[ScouseJohnny]

After reading all 12 pages of this last night (such is the nature of insomnia), it seems that the basic argument is:

A typical, male, amateur scratch golfer who plays decent American courses could more than hold his own on the LPGA tour (at least in terms of maintaining a tour card and, some would argue, even being competitive in certain events); the reason for this can be attributed to a lack of depth in the quality of the LPGA field when taken as a whole.

I don't necessarily agree with that statement, but it does appear to be the general gist of the argument.

I'm sure many of you have read this intriguing article from the New York Times from July of this year. Female golfers appear around page 4 of the (lengthy) story.

OK, so it's talking about a miniscule portion of the Chinese population (but that's a pretty big population, after all). Chinese children are apparently being schooled in golf in a similar way that promising Soviet gymnasts were schooled in gymnastics. Personally I don't think an 8 year old child should be compelled to hit hundreds of golf balls and play however many holes of golf a day on the reasoning that he or she has shown promise at the game - they ought to be in school with children of their own age - but my opinion is neither here nor there.

I'd predict that unless the field is going to massively widened on the LPGA tour, a decade or so from now Mr. Amateur Country Club American Scratchman needn't worry too much about whether the majority of players on the LPGA tour could keep up with him on their own tour...

[Dave2512]

This is really about numbers and math......a "scratch golfer" is defined as someone who can play to a zero course handicap on any course.

So, having a little too much time on my hands last night, I took a look at that and compared it to actual LPGA tournament results.  I picked 5 LPGA tournaments at absolute random.  I researched the men's course ratings for them and then looked at the LPGA tournament results.

Here's what I came up with for a theoretical scratch golfer who did NOT play to his defined expectation, but rather exceeded the course rating by one stroke for every round he played.

Tournament                                       Yds / Course Rating                       Cut Line                Scratch Result *

Kia Classic                                                6,593 / 72.7                                 147                   Missed cut by 1

Kingsmill Championship                            6,379 / 70.9                                 145                   288 = T44

Wegmans Championship                          6,530 / 70.7                                 150                   288 = T15

Safeway Classic                                        6,465 / 71.1                                 142                   Missed cut by 2

Marathon Classic                                       6,428 / 71.2                                 144                   288 = T68

*  Assumes  +1  to course rating each round

This "guy" made the cut 60% of the time, playing relatively mediocre golf by true scratch standards.   These courses are short and pretty easy with only Aviara Golf Club at the Kia Classic playing even close to 6,600 yards with 3 of the 5 courses rated below par for the men.  Does he keep his card and make a living?  I think so......  If he manages to simply play to the course ratings, he does very well indeed.

Very good but do you think +1 for each round is enough to account for the psychological factor this hypothetical scratch golfer will face playing in pro tournaments. Not to mention the consistency you've given him seems to be exceptional. It appears you just picked a number you think represents the median. Surely there is a scratch or close to scratch golfer here that can share their tournament scores.

[iacas]

Surely there is a scratch or close to scratch golfer here that can share their tournament scores.

Probably not from 6500 yards.

[David in FL]

Very good but do you think +1 for each round is enough to account for the psychological factor this hypothetical scratch golfer will face playing in pro tournaments. Not to mention the consistency you've given him seems to be exceptional. It appears you just picked a number you think represents the median. Surely there is a scratch or close to scratch golfer here that can share their tournament scores.

Remember.....scratch golfer is defined as having a certain ability.  You can't modify that definition to whatever you like.  I've admitted before, every "zero" handicap does not necessarily meet that definition, but there are a lot of real live scratch golfers out there that do.

There are also a LOT of serious amateur scratch golfers who play in a lot of state and national level amateur tournaments, against other players that are much better than they are.  Most of those are on much longer, more difficult courses.  So no, I don't think what we're looking at here seems all that exceptional.  As to consistency, that works both ways.  He'll play worse on occasion, he'll also play better on occasion.  Who knows, maybe a top-10 or two?  Maybe not......but compete and even keep his card?  Sure looks like the math and actual tournament results support it.

We'll never know though.  As Erik has said, there's absolutely NO upside to the LPGA tour to allow anyone to even try.

[rkim291968]

After reading all 12 pages of this last night (such is the nature of insomnia), it seems that the basic argument is:

A typical, male, amateur scratch golfer who plays decent American courses could more than hold his own on the LPGA tour (at least in terms of maintaining a tour card and, some would argue, even being competitive in certain events); the reason for this can be attributed to a lack of depth in the quality of the LPGA field when taken as a whole.

I don't necessarily agree with that statement, but it does appear to be the general gist of the argument.

I'm sure many of you have read this intriguing article from the New York Times from July of this year. Female golfers appear around page 4 of the (lengthy) story.

OK, so it's talking about a miniscule portion of the Chinese population (but that's a pretty big population, after all). Chinese children are apparently being schooled in golf in a similar way that promising Soviet gymnasts were schooled in gymnastics. Personally I don't think an 8 year old child should be compelled to hit hundreds of golf balls and play however many holes of golf a day on the reasoning that he or she has shown promise at the game - they ought to be in school with children of their own age - but my opinion is neither here nor there.

I'd predict that unless the field is going to massively widened on the LPGA tour, a decade or so from now Mr. Amateur Country Club American Scratchman needn't worry too much about whether the majority of players on the LPGA tour could keep up with him on their own tour...

Yes, and no.

Yes - you don't need to go to China to see that.  It has been happening in Korea, Taiwan, and US (among Asian Americans).

No - the LPGA purse is so small that, unlike PGA tour, only top 40 - 50 can make a decent living.    Hence, a lot of talented Korean, Japanese, and other Asian players opt to play in their own leagues.   This is reason why you see a big level difference between top LPGA players and the rest.   If purse gets bigger and more players come to play in LPGA, average male scratch golfer would have no chance.

[Jeremie Boop]

Yes, and no.

Yes - you don't need to go to China to see that.  It has been happening in Korea, Taiwan, and US (among Asian Americans).

No - the LPGA purse is so small that, unlike PGA tour, only top 40 - 50 can make a decent living.    Hence, a lot of talented Korean, Japanese, and other Asian players opt to play in their own leagues.   This is reason why you see a big level difference between top LPGA players and the rest.   If purse gets bigger and more players come to play in LPGA, average male scratch golfer would have no chance.

Not sure I totally agree that only the top 40-50 make a decent living. The 100th on money this year is over 60k... Playing golf. If I could make 60k playing golf full time yeah, I'd do it. I would say that's a "good living" playing golf.

[David in FL]

Yes, and no. Yes - you don't need to go to China to see that.  It has been happening in Korea, Taiwan, and US (among Asian Americans). No - the LPGA purse is so small that, unlike PGA tour, only top 40 - 50 can make a decent living.    Hence, a lot of talented Korean, Japanese, and other Asian players opt to play in their own leagues.   This is reason why you see a big level difference between top LPGA players and the rest.   If purse gets bigger and more players come to play in LPGA, average male scratch golfer would have no chance.

Top 80 or so made more than $100k last year. Throw in some endorsement money, appearance fees, etc....and it's not a bad way to scrape by. Unfortunately, the purses won't grow unless viewership grows. Viewership will only grow if the LPGA becomes more entertaining to the predominantly male golf audience.

[nick1998bunker]

Only read some posts but I play at an Arnold Palmer course that used to host an LPGA event. It was just a little bit easy for them but Its really nothing special difficulty wise. Its shorter but very narrow past the landing zone. On the tees the women play from they would have 8-6 irons into greens and men would probably have gw- chips. I was only hitting it about 230 last time I played from the 2 longest tees and had pw into almost all greens and could easily reach all par 5s. A scratch golfer probably shoots about 69 on that course which is what the winning ladies were shooting. There is just too big of a difference between LPGA and PGA. Give it a few years though and I think there will be a huge rise in womens golf. Especially from Asians. Still couldnt compete with men through due to distance and short game.

I believe Annika played in a PGA event awhile ago and played well. She couldnt break par and missed the cut.

[Jayz]

I have been to Lpga events and I would win and not be out of the top 5 not once playing the tee that they do for an event

[Lihu]

I have been to Lpga events and I would win and not be out of the top 5 not once playing the tee that they do for an event

I don't doubt this possibility, but you're a +2 HC which is a lot better than scratch.

Also, I want to give you a warm welcome to TST.

I hope to see a lot more posts from you.

[GHIN0011458]

I have been to Lpga events and I would win and not be out of the top 5 not once playing the tee that they do for an event

Do you have some tourney scores- would love to compare them to LPGA stuff.