Male Scratch Golfer on the LPGA Tour

[FLOG4]

Regardless of how far anyone standardly hits their PW....based on a bet anyone can knock it 30/40 yards further by delofting hooding and swinging for the fences especially if given several whacks.  The idea that somehow anyone wants to fault a discussion because they don't believe it, and oh by the way he would win the Long Drive Competition and 150k....Come on. Virtually every one of those incredible hulks on the long drive circuit can bust it 350 in their sleep.  So anyone thinking an average Joe will join up and win isn't dealing in reality.  That's all those guys do, is try to smash it FAR. So the bud Gresh24 speaks of can pop it a long way.  He enjoys playing, and maybe he doesn't want to commit 100% of his time to being The Long Drive Champ....That's fine. Personally I'd love to play with you two and see a couple of those launches.....Amazing to watch. I've got a bud who mashes em similarly, He's never mentioned his club speed.  He did play in a corporate outing with Charles Howell III and on a par 3 their teeboxes were very close and when he booped his on the green Charles asked what he hit and he had hit a 6 iron while Charles hit a 5 and he told the guy....Hey nobody hits an iron longer than me other than freaks....Who Are You? So there are plenty of really long knockers that aren't running to try to be Jason Zuback/Jamie Sadlowsky...

[B-Con]

I've actually played with a few LPGA pros, and played regularly with a young college girl who went on the tour shortly thereafter. My one and only coach was friend to quite a few, and when they were in town for the Dina Shore, would show up to visit and get in some practice.

I could occasionally beat my young friend, but never ever beat the touring pros. Even when I shot 68-67. I could out drive them, but it didn't matter. Beth just flat kicked my arse...

You want to make yourself feel better by telling yourself you can beat the girls, by all means go ahead. But maybe you should trying playing with a few first...  ;-)

That's an interesting account. What was your handicap when you played with them? Were you playing the same tees?

[wmiller]

Last official handicap was a one. Yes, we always played the same tees. While I often was hitting two clubs less than them into the par 4s, it didn't seem to matter. Most could throw a lawn dart with a 7 or 6 iron inside my 8 or 9. Brandie, the young college girl, could hit a 5 iron almost as far as I could (~190-200), which was pretty big back then with a balata ball and today's 6 iron loft.

[The Recreational Golfer]

The value of answering this question would go something along these lines.

Men are the best golfers in the world. There is no question about that. In order for the women's game to get better in general, they need to play against golfers who are better than they are to find out what they (the women) need to do to get better. And I don't just mean, hit the ball a lot farther, although that would be a big one. The knowledge gained from losing to men who are better by enough would show just where the holes are that the women have to patch up.

An example of how this works in sports is to look at the history of men's Olympic basketball. For a while, all the U.S. had to do was throw together a college all-star team, have them practice together for three weeks, and go win the gold medal. The rest of the world was watching and studying, though. They found out what they had to do to beat the American college players, and by the 1980s the world had caught up. So the American team got populated with the best NBA players, and again the world took a drubbing until they found out what they had to do to compete at this new level.

By finding out at what level the best women in the world play at in comparison to male golfers, they (the women) would find out what their game lacks and hopefully go about fixing it. (That includes hitting the ball farther, because the pitty-pat swings I saw at the Safeway Classic last weekend have to be the first thing to go.) After parity was attained at that test level, the women would need to compare themselves again against a better level of male player and begin the analysis again.

That's the theory. How this could be done in practice, I don't know, but until the best female players are willing to get trounced by better (male) players and spend the time to find out what to do about it, the quality of the womens' game will stagnate. It probably is already stagnant, compared to the men's game, which is likely one big reason why the LPGA has such a hard time getting an audience.

[wmiller]

Wow... Seriously?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by wmiller

Wow... Seriously?

Are you shocked because trolls don't typically put their f'd up thoughts in paragraphs?

[wmiller]

[ghalfaire]

I gave this a little thought as I play pretty regularly with a 4-5 Handicap player and have some feel for his game.  He doesn't have any weaknesses in his game and is a pretty steady player.  We play a lot of munies and he often breaks par.  Assuming we are talking about this male using the same tee as the LPGA players, I think he would for sure make most of the cuts, but he would have to have an awful good four days to win.  But then I have observed that the winner of most LPGA events usually has a pretty good 4 days.  I have attended a few LPGA events and believe my buddy would be competitive for sure and maybe even garner a few top 10 finishes.

[shades9323]

Sorry, you are kidding yourself if you think your 4-5 HC friend would ever finish in the top 10 of an event on the LPGA tour.

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I gave this a little thought as I play pretty regularly with a 4-5 Handicap player and have some feel for his game.  He doesn't have any weaknesses in his game and is a pretty steady player.  We play a lot of munies and he often breaks par.  Assuming we are talking about this male using the same tee as the LPGA players, I think he would for sure make most of the cuts, but he would have to have an awful good four days to win.  But then I have observed that the winner of most LPGA events usually has a pretty good 4 days.  I have attended a few LPGA events and believe my buddy would be competitive for sure and maybe even garner a few top 10 finishes.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by shades9323

Sorry, you are kidding yourself if you think your 4-5 HC friend would ever finish in the top 10 of an event on the LPGA tour.

He might compete, but that's because someone who "often breaks par" isn't really a "4-5". Are they?!?

[ghalfaire]

I believe he is a 4 or so most of the time.  As far as I know he posts all his scores and does so accurately.  We play mostly munis and the slopes/ratings are not so high on those as many of the other courses around here.  I guess "often" isn't a very precise term (I suppose I could have said occasionally) but I don't keep stats on him so not sure and by Par I meant the scorecard par not his calculated differential from the rating.  How he would do in an LPGA, who knows?  The only local LPGA tournament played on a course that is private and can't play there to see just how he would do.  But he does seem to have an uncanny ability to raise his game under pressure and has in the past had a Tournament Handicap of somewhat less than 4.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

He might compete, but that's because someone who "often breaks par" isn't really a "4-5". Are they?!?

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

We play mostly munis and the slopes/ratings are not so high on those as many of the other courses around here.

Then how would he compete on a course groomed for LPGA players? ( ie. much higher slope/rating than most munis)

[BallStriker]

Not so sure about the Erik's premise....for one, LPGA courses are often set up so that player's cannot simply over-power the golf course....I think Ledbetter has gone on record saying that may LPGA set-ups take Michelle Wie's length out of play.....I would assume the big advantage a male scratch golf has over women is the length...if that is neutralized, then it comes down to playing the game from 150 yards and in, and I think that is where the LPGA players will have an advantage over your typical scratch golfer.

my 2 cents..

[newtogolf]

Possibly, but from 150 yards scratch male golfer is probably hitting a PW or 9i where as most LPGA players will be hitting a 7i or 6i which makes a difference.

Originally Posted by BallStriker

Not so sure about the Eric's premise....for one, LPGA courses are often set up so that player's cannot simply over-power the golf course....I think Ledbetter has gone on record saying that may LPGA set-ups take Michelle Wie's length out of play.....I would assume the big advantage a male scratch golf has over women is the length...if that is neutralized, then it comes down to playing the game from 150 yards and in, and I think that is where the LPGA players will have an advantage over your typical scratch golfer.

my 2 cents..

[wmiller]

Sorry, but 'scratch' doesn't mean 'long'. I play with a few guys who break par just as often as they shoot over, and only two hit a 9 iron 150. The others hit 8. None hit a PW. I have seen young guys hit a PW that far. But they never hit a green with one while I was watching.

And as you have no experience with these players, I can tell you from experience that the pros I have played with can throw a 6 iron inside a scratch's 8 more often than not. That's why they have 'plus' handicaps, not scratch.

Has anyone else here actually played with any LPGA pros? Or is this just mental finger twiddling to pass some time? I see a lot of posts from people who aren't even close to scratch, so how could you possibly know what it takes to play at that level, let alone know what it would take to beat a LPGA pro?

Not standing up for the pros, nor picking on anyone, but is quite a bit more hyperbole than most threads on this forum...

[newtogolf]

Nope, I never played golf with an LPGA pro but I watch them often on television and I have played with scratch golfers.  You don't have to play with an LPGA pro to see what iron they use for a given distance and how accurate they are.  There's a number of LPGA pro's that shoot over par at least 85% of the time so while a scratch golfer might not beat the top 20% of the total LPGA field I'd give them fair odds to at least beat the bottom 20%.

ROUNDS UNDER PAR/TOTAL ROUNDS/PERCENTAGE - 2011

Last Updated: Sunday, August 28, 2011

T119	Dori Carter	3	20	0.150
T119	Ashli Bunch	3	20	0.150
T119	Ji Young Oh	3	20	0.150
T119	Yoo Kyeong Kim	3	20	0.150
T123	Jeehae Lee	3	21	0.143
T123	Nicole Castrale	3	21	0.143
T123	Mhairi McKay	2	14	0.143
126	Alison Walshe	3	22	0.136
T127	Eunjung Yi	2	15	0.133
T127	Jean Reynolds	2	15	0.133
T127	Leta Lindley	4	30	0.133
T130	Jaclyn Sweeney	2	16	0.125
T130	Sara Brown	2	16	0.125
T130	Young-A Yang	1	8	0.125
T133	Angela Oh	2	18	0.111
T133	Na On Min	3	27	0.111
T133	Jee Young Lee	3	27	0.111
136	Paola Moreno	2	19	0.105
137	Grace Park	3	29	0.103
138	Jennie Lee	2	20	0.100
139	Laura Diaz	2	23	0.087
140	Maria Hernandez	1	12	0.083
141	Jimin Jeong	1	13	0.077
142	Allison Hanna	1	15	0.067
143	Birdie Kim	1	17	0.059
144	Christine Song	1	19	0.053
145	Jennifer Rosales	1	23	0.043
146	Sherri Steinhauer	1	24	0.042

Originally Posted by wmiller

Has anyone else here actually played with any LPGA pros? Or is this just mental finger twiddling to pass some time? I see a lot of posts from people who aren't even close to scratch, so how could you possibly know what it takes to play at that level, let alone know what it would take to beat a LPGA pro?

Not standing up for the pros, nor picking on anyone, but is quite a bit more hyperbole than most threads on this forum...

[wmiller]

And how many pga pros can't finish in the top 150, lose their card, can't keep their card from year to year, never make a cut the entire year, etc., etc..? Lots. Your data doesn't prove anything against the original premise. I can make a list just like yours full of bottom feeders on the pga tour. So what. I'm sure there are amateurs that can regularly beat the bottom 20% of the pga tour too.

I think the original question was could a scratch player/amateur  successfully compete on the LPGA tour. In a tournament. Against ALL of them, not just the bottom feeders.

And to me, the word compete means in the hunt for the win, and on more than one occasion. Fat chance of that happening. I seriously doubt the up-and-comers on the mini-tours could do it. Hell, most of them will never get their pga card. They aren't good enough. And many that do, can't keep them.

I've seen LPGA pros place higher than dead last on the men's tour. More than once. They didn't win, but they beat quite a few of the men. On their home turf.

[mikelegacy]

Originally Posted by wmiller

Has anyone else here actually played with any LPGA pros? Or is this just mental finger twiddling to pass some time? I see a lot of posts from people who aren't even close to scratch, so how could you possibly know what it takes to play at that level, let alone know what it would take to beat a LPGA pro?

I'm sorry, but i'm sick of people on this forum believing that someone's handicap means absolutely ANYTHING about their knowledge of the game. Most of the best TEACHERS of golf weren't really that good on tour, if they played on tour at all.

Just because someone isn't great PHYSICALLY at the game of golf, doesn't mean that they don't know the game, nor that they can't judge the players of the game. Hell, I'm a 20 handicap, but I guarantee I know more about swing techniques and proper posture and things like that than my friends who are single digit handicaps because I OBSESS over those things. That's probably part of my downfall, my mental obsession over proper technique.

Perfect example, I am not a pro hockey player, but I damn well know when a pro makes a mistake because I obsess over plays and skill drills. I can also judge a pro's skill level compared to others by watching their game.

If someone on here watches the women's and men's tour enough, they will definitely be able to get a grasp on what an estimated outcome of a match would be.