Why Aren’t More People Copying Moe Norman's Swing?

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by canadianpro

I've had the great pleasure of not only watching Moe hit balls but having the chance to play with him a couple of times. Moe use to put coins down two feet behind and two feet ahead of the ball and his idea was to have the clubhead square to the target throughout that zone while "holding the angle" (his defintion of lag). If it was any easy task to copy Moe's "action" we all would be doing it but I have seen many try and to my knowledge nobody has been able to master it to the point where they are regarded as one of the best ball-strkers ever. He was one of a kind and to watch him was amazing.

Lots of discussion out there that, although Norman was a great ball striker, he was not a long hitter off the tee.  What was your experience during your rounds with him?  Given the different equipment back then, was he a "long" hitter?

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Lots of discussion out there that, although Norman was a great ball striker, he was not a long hitter off the tee.  What was your experience during your rounds with him?  Given the different equipment back then, was he a "long" hitter?

He was a lot longer as a Young kid.

long enough to shoot 59 several Times in competition.

he was also way above 80% in greens and fairways.

his head injury as a kid made him akward and since society has low tolerance for geniuses and autism he never made it on the PGA Circuit.

[onesome]

I don't know if he still does but Sandy Lyle used Moes style of swing some years back, just worth mentioning a former open and masters winner felt it was a worthwhile technique.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

All,

I thought I got this posted last night, but I guess not. After two years of golf, I've inevitably come across the "Legend of Moe Norman," the "Greatest Ball Striker Who Ever Lived." I've seen his swing on YouTube in its current incarnation, so it's one of a 60+ year-old man, but I heard that in his heyday he was the most consistent ball striker ever. What's his secret, anyone who knows, and is his swing one worth emulating? His swing now looks bereft of power, but I saw on some infomercial that even as a youth he would "drive one ball after another 250 down the middle of the fairway..." I would love to be 250 in the dead center of every fairway as much as anyone else, but I also want to be able to go at par 5's in 2 once in a while. I think I'd sacrifice 250 95% of the time for 290+ 65% of the time. I also haven't seen any mention of his short game, or even full wedge swings. I'm sure I could form my own conclusions after looking at some film, but I was wondering if any of you experts out there have some thoughts. Thanks.

Here's my take:

Secret? He started with the club shaft on the same plane that he finished at impact. Everything he did was to make this happen as simply as he could. That setup looks funny to many people and is not taught as a conventional swing where the plane of the shaft is lower at setup than it will be at impact.

Power? I'm much longer than I was before Moe and my clubhead speed is faster than my old "conventional" swing. And I'm longer than many 53 year olds. Moe was long as a young man. Not OMG long, but long. This may be as much from hitting the ball pure as it is from clubhead speed. Power comes from clubhead speed delivered at the right place at the right time. I think Moe did this well and even did it as an old man.

Full wedge shots? Even as an older man, he could hit buckets of wedge shots into a tiny space. There is lots of video of his wedge swing. In many respects it is a baby version of the full swing.

Short game? He had very natural abilities and great hand eye coordination. One of his issues was that he was very visual. He would see his target and hit the ball to it -- much like throwing a ball to a basket. If he had a blind shot, he struggled. I think this was part of his Asperger Syndrome (never officially diagnosed). Short game bottom line is although he hit a lot of greens, he could get up and down well when he missed a green. He had a sand wedge with a huge bottom. This was a time of slower greens and this odd wedge allowed him to get out and get the ball rolling. (An idea for a different time.) In his younger days, he did not like to practice putting and would often play without putting (just played counting fairways, GIR and flags hit). But he could putt well enough to set a lot of course records. As he got older, he came to embrace the idea of putting. Even so, his gift to the game is off the green.

Quirks? He had many quirks that his swing better than his game. He played very very fast and could not tolerate slow play that was part of tournament golf even in his day. He had his own sense of justice and fairness which led him to sell his prizes from amateur competitions (watches, radios, and the like.) He was easily distracted into playing to and for the crowd including hitting tee shots off a Coke bottle. In an era when elite and pro golf was more of a club than a profession, Moe did not fit into the club.

Learn to swing like Moe? I recommend it. My friends have seen the results in my game. Still, the pull toward convention has not allowed a single friend switch. This, even as I have passed them all in lowering my handicap to the lowest in my extended group. My son says the setup looks too weird for him to consider it. To me, it looks and feels normal after so many years. If your game is good now, this is a big switch and you are unlikely to embrace any huge swing change to shave one of two strokes off your game or hit one more fairway per round. If your current swing is worthy of a complete do-over, then I recommend starting over with Moe.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Power? I'm much longer than I was before Moe and my clubhead speed is faster than my old "conventional" swing. And I'm longer than many 53 year olds. Moe was long as a young man. Not OMG long, but long. This may be as much from hitting the ball pure as it is from clubhead speed. Power comes from clubhead speed delivered at the right place at the right time. I think Moe did this well and even did it as an old man.

To be fair, his "younger days" swing was a bit more "conventional" as well. Not a lot of video of it, but he slowly adopted the style for which he's famous, and according to many Canadians I've known who played with him, got progressively shorter too.

And to be clear, too, about being fair: I'm not saying he was ever truly "short" - but compared to what he was, or what he probably could have been, he was short er .

I've messed around with his swing (Chuck Evans was watching me and helping me do it), and it's easy to see how it can be a bit more accurate. Instead of a 180-yard six-iron I hit them about 172 or so. 10%, and probably closer to 8%.

YMMV. :)

[bplewis24]

It's easy to tell I still don't know **** about golf, because after looking for videos of "Moe Norman" swinging, I have no idea what possibly makes his swing so unique or remarkable.  Perhaps I'm just watching the wrong videos or something.

[pipergsm]

it's quite simple actually.

Moe's swing is easier to execute and easier to repeat accurately, than the modern golf swing.

This allows you to play with much less "mishits".

The basic drive-swing also makes it much more difficult to hit slices and hooks, which is what many amateurs struggle with.

In short: the basic Moe Norman swing is easy to master and will give you, almost overnight, a much higher accuracy, usually resulting in clearly lower scores.

Not even aware of his existence, I recently started to use his swing for my driver (I was experimenting to get rid of my slices)

The result?

After hitting a few dozen balls and adjusting my feet-positioning, I now hit shot after shot as straight as can be, and while my back-swing currently takes about 1.5 seconds (very slow!), my shots reach over 230 yards carry (250-260 total), when hit more or less center.

With practice, I'm sure this will increase to 270 carry or more.

I'd like to add that I'm under 5 foot 8 tall, weigh about 147 lbs and am not at all athletic.

[bplewis24]

What did your handicap drop from and to?

[rustyredcab]

The big concept of Moe's swing is that he started with the club on the same plane at address that he had at impact. To see the difference, note how his lead arm is in line with the shaft at address. Conventional swing has the lead arm and shaft on different lines at address and then the same line at impact.

My index dropped from 18.0 before Moe to a low of 6.1 in 2011. Currently 9.3 with very few high rounds in my last 20. When I was an 18.0 I would have ten OK rounds that made up my index and ten rounds that were awful. It was possible for me to go out and shoot 88 or 107. And 18.0 was the lowest I'd ever been. Most of my adult life I'd bounced around 20-25. I just realized that I was not going to get better doing and I could not stand shooting in the 100's. If I wanted to make a big change in my results, I needed to be willing to make a total swing change. I "instantly" got better but still had rounds when I would blow up but almost no rounds in the 100's. Then I discover pure Moe as taught by Graves Golf (see my signature) and founds ways to try and copy Moe more exactly. That is when my game took a quantum change for the better. The high rounds were much lower and the low rounds were much better and more often. I got long and knew what I was trying to do every time I had a club in my hand.

In my experience, it is not an overnight or magic fix but is an awesome fix. I been to a few schools and this swing (perhaps like all swings) works best with a full commitment to the swing. Trying a little of Moe here and there but keeping some of your old stuff is often a formula for mixed results and for testimonials that claim this does not work. I've seen it work for me and for others at school. Well worth a look if you are thinking about making a swing change.

[pipergsm]

I don't have an official handicap yet, and I've only been practicing this swing for a few days, needing to adjust foot-position etc.

However, I usually score around 52-54 for the local 9-hole course, and my last 3 rounds were 48-47-48.

I only use this swing for my driver and I made the last fine-tuning today during practice.

I'm almost sure my next round will be around 45, maybe even better (also made some improvements on my irons today).

[rustyredcab]

Pipergsm -- visit http://moenormangolf.com for Moe Norman swing instruction. Lots of great information. The Graves brothers are the real deal.

[pipergsm]

Thanks rustyredcab!

And just as I expected, my 2 rounds today, morning and afternoon, ended in a 45 and 46!

Still, I have the feeling I can do even better, since I'm still making stupid mishits I don't usually make during practice (lack of focus I guess)

Up to break 40?!?

[pipergsm]

Oh, and by the way, for those who claim Moe Norman's swing lacks power:    today I hit several shots, ranging from 260 to 300 yards, without even trying to swing it fast!

[EverythingGolf]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

Oh, and by the way, for those who claim Moe Norman's swing lacks power:    today I hit several shots, ranging from 260 to 300 yards, without even trying to swing it fast!

Did you get them numbers from a launch monitor(trackman).

[rustyredcab]

As you may have guessed, I'm a huge Moe fan. Here are a few thoughts about the swing you can take or leave:

Having a swing model has been a great help for me. My goal is to try and duplicate Moe's swing. He is my model. And he has been well studied by my instructors. How far apart should my legs be? Where is the ball position with a 6-iron? How much hip turn? Exactly how do I grip the club? What is the exact spine tilt? I have found having a model instead of swing concepts that I personalize, has allowed me to keep my improvement on track and even self-correct while on the course. If your model was someone other than Moe, I think it helps to try and follow the model exactly.

Moe's swing is easier on your body. Done correctly, Moe's swing puts less pressure on knees, hips, and back. This is very good for many and for me. If you have issues, this is a way to stay in the game. I can now practice for hours without pain or discomfort. I have bad knees, one bad hip, and a bad back.

The swing is simple but not easy. Doing what needs to be done is attainable for everyone with even modest flexibility. The positions are simple. Doing it means learning new feelings and replacing old habits. Old habits die hard. Sometimes I still want to clear my hips after years of Moe swinging. Moe's swing is simple but not easy. Everything lines up. Everything makes sense. Simple. If it was easy, I'd be scratch and never miss a fairway or green. You still need to be good to be good. I'd say it is easier. And If you never played golf before, it would be an easier swing to learn and you'd have no habits to break.

We Moe fans are evangelical. We think we've found the greatest swing and are willing to help others follow us. If you swing like Moe, other Moe fans will ask for advise on the range and offer encouragement. It is a great compliment when someone recognizes my swing as a Moe swing. I must be doing it close to correct.

Natural Golf instruction is now Moe Norman swings. Graves Golf bought Natural Golf instruction and now teaches Natural Golf as Moe's swing. The Old Natural Golf was Moe-like but not really Moe. If you tried natural Golf over two years ago, you were not trying to swing like Moe. Long story for another thread. But trust me, Moe's swing as taught now by Graves Golf is the one with power and is the one that took my game to a new level.

Why don't pros swing like Moe? Why don't they swing like Travino? Who knows?

[pipergsm]

No trackman.

I trust my teacher and the indications on the driving range : they both said my ball reached 300 (or very,very close).

during my 9-hole round, 265 and 285, paced it of myself and compared with the indications on the course and on the scorecard, all matched.

[pipergsm]

I think the reason is quite simple.

By the time most people (also professionals) hear about Moe's swing, they have already established their own swing and perfectioned it to such a level, they don't need another swing and they certainly don't want to spend time and energy on learning a whole new swing with the risk of ending up worse or not better at all.

I believe Moe's swing is a fantastic tool for people who have only just started in golf, or people who don't succeed in creating a consistent swing and are still looking for a way to have consistent swing results.

I can honestly say that, only a week ago, my swing (driver) was a mess.

I constantly had to choose between a more or less straight hit, but very short (-200 yards), or a decent distance (220+) but having a huge slice in +80% of my drives.

Since I re-started swinging like Moe 5 days ago (a swing I discovered myself by accident, while experimenting with different swing-positions), I've made unbelievable progress!

Over 90% of my drives are now straight and usually end up around 230 yards or more when I don't mishit due to loss of balance, and I'm getting more and more drives that end up over 250.

I even reached 300 a few times already, and I'm not even trying to swing fast!

I'm 5 foot 8 and 146 lbs, so not exactly the athletic type!

My only possible advantage is a high flexibility. I used to do gymnastics 25 years ago, but it's a natural flexibility (I'm 40 now).

For all those who haven't established a consistent swing yet, I can definitely advise to try it out!

[joe flog]

If you can hit a ball perfectly straight to a target, what do you need a fade/draw for off the tee?  If you are inconsistent, I can see why. By lining up left and fading to the middle you have three chances of getting an acceptable shot: 1, the ball fades into the middle of the fairway; 2. the ball doesn't fade and you end up left of centre but still in the fairway; 3) it fades too much and you are on the right side of the fairway, maybe in the rough.  But if you are reasonably consistent you just play straight for where you want the ball to be.  It's a bit different in the fairway where you may have to bend the ball's flight around an obstacle or around a corner. But Moe could do this any old time. "Fade to the back of the green.  Fade to the back of the green.  Fade to the back of the green." And, one, two, three ... the ball would fade to the back of the green.  Every. Single. Time.