The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[J_Bone]

I think I'm going to try the Stack and Tilt with my putting, I'll come back to tell you guys how it goes

I do.....Just my back swing is much shorter than the rest of my clubs.

[bentur123]

I've been trying to get a better understanding of the golf swing in recent weeks and have found this thread very intresting, but I was just wondering is there any benefit of having a large weight transfer to the back foot such as in the 'traditional' swing. And if not why do so many people do it

[alf174]

I've been trying to get a better understanding of the golf swing in recent weeks and have found this thread very intresting, but I was just wondering is there any benefit of having a large weight transfer to the back foot such as in the 'traditional' swing. And if not why do so many people do it

I believe the benefit comes when the weight transfers back to the front side and is properly synchronized with the club swing & impact.

[iacas]

I've been trying to get a better understanding of the golf swing in recent weeks and have found this thread very intresting, but I was just wondering is there any benefit of having a large weight transfer to the back foot such as in the 'traditional' swing. And if not why do so many people do it

None. Literally no benefit.

Some would have you believe you can hit the ball farther, but: a) your contact's going to be all over the map, so that's going to rob you of distance, and... b) your swing speed will actually be lower. So no, you can't even hit the ball farther. In S&T; you still transfer more weight to your right side in the backswing. The left side of your chest and your left arm moves right as it rotates, so technically there's a weight shift. The feeling, though, is that you're just turning around a fixed point (because you are) and your weight stays left (it doesn't in reality, but that's the feeling). So again, no advantages or benefits to translating off the golf ball. Why do so many people do it? Poor instruction, mostly. Golf magazines are bad for your swing. They're a series of quick fixes and incorrect statements. Like this one in this month's Golf Tips: To hit a draw, align your body to the right, align the clubface at the target, and roll your wrists thru impact.

[saevel25]

If you find alot of pro swings that are face on, alot of them do not get the weight shift to the right leg like many golf magazines say. Though some have more lateral head shift than others, its minimal, majority of pro's are very centralized. Its something i fight alot in my swing. I tend to go to my right side a ton. But i do find that my best swings are when i am able to just rotate around my center more and just unload into a balanced finish. I went back to my right side more so i got the feeling of going back than forward, usually when i kept centered i would hang back on my right side because my upper body felt like it was forward and my hips would out race my body.

[colin007]

i was watching ernie yesterday and it seems like he manages to keep a lot of flex in his right knee, at least when i saw him. looked almost awkward.

[saevel25]

It is awkward. I am not saying swing your hips around your body, but it should naturally straighten out. Your left leg straightens in the finish, why shouldn't your right leg straighten. I am not saying that you should lock your knee, some players have a perfect straight leg at the finish, some keep some flex, but its not flexed like at address, not even close.

[bentur123]

Is it just me or does it seem bonkers that after all these years playing golf and with all the modern technology we now use that the most effective swing isn't widly used ( I suppose the best swing is different for everyone)

[JGus]

I have had ACL Reconstruction on my right knee as well as a couple scopes, as a right handed player sometimes the pain in my knee is so bad that I can't get all of the weight back on my right side, which ultimately causes my lower body not to move at all.

I was at the range on Thursday night and my knee was hurting a little so I decided to try to hit the rest of the bucket with the weight on my left side. It took a few swings to get used to it, but once I did it a few times I really couldn't tell I was doing things differently. I did not change anything in my stance, grip, or swing, other than shifting my weight to the left side.

I played 36 holes on Saturday and 18 on Sunday, all three rounds I played with the weight shifted to my left side. I seemed to be making better contact with the ball for the most part, and had some great shots, but have my own inconsistency woes that I am working on.

Three things kept hurting me both days:
1. A Pull with 5-7 irons, rescues, and 3 & 5 woods. Club Face at impact would be maybe 1" to 2" closed.
2. Pull Hook or Slice with Driver. Club head would be 2" to 3" closed.
3. Blade or very low shots with 8-9 and wedges.

Questions:
1. When starting with the weight on the left side, should the grip be adjusted any to open/close the club face?
2. Should your stance/alignment change at all?
3. Does having the weight on the left side affect the ball position? Should it be moved forward a little compared to current position?
4. When hitting with rescue clubs, fairway woods, and driver, am I suppose to feel like I am hitting down on the ball more than with the weight normal? (the obvious answer to me is yes)


Erik, on the other thread in reference to me over swinging and closing the club face you stated that I am likely not taking my hands back on the arc and that if I just spin from there I can also be coming over the top.

I understand the second part, as when I over swing I usually do come over the top with a very closed club face and probably don't slide my hips forward at all, which I am working on by trying to establish my proper tempo. But I don't fully understand taking the hands back on the arc, could you explain it farther?

Thanks!

[iacas]

I have had ACL Reconstruction on my right knee as well as a couple scopes, as a right handed player sometimes the pain in my knee is so bad that I can't get all of the weight back on my right side, which ultimately causes my lower body not to move at all.

Can it start left (~55%) and then MOVE MORE LEFT (~90%)? That requires a little "pushing off" with the right foot but not a ton. Can you straighten (not lock but lessen the flex) and then re-flex the right knee a little?

1. A Pull with 5-7 irons, rescues, and 3 & 5 woods. Club Face at impact would be maybe 1" to 2" closed.

The slices shouldn't happen, but can easily if you pre-set TOO MUCH weight forward at setup and then just spin out from there.

Though you're stacked (upper center on top of lower center) at setup, the ideal is to then push the lower center well forward throughout the downswing into impact to shallow everything out and to allow you to swing from the inside. If you just spin from the top and the weight doesn't slide forward (via the hips), then you'll just come over the top and hit lots of pulls and slices.

1. When starting with the weight on the left side, should the grip be adjusted any to open/close the club face?

The clubface should aim slightly to the right, but NOT if you're going to still swing across the ball. It's not the "55/45" at setup that dictates the path will come from the inside - the 55/45 is primarily to help you get to 90/10 at impact, and THAT is a big part of dictating the swing path.

You were hitting slices and dead pulls, so you've not got an inside-out swing path quite yet.

2. Should your stance/alignment change at all?

Square-ish to the target with your body lines is pretty typical, but there's a range.

3. Does having the weight on the left side affect the ball position? Should it be moved forward a little compared to current position?

Roughly left heel for the driver to a half a ball from the center or so for a wedge. Same as before, most likely.

4. When hitting with rescue clubs, fairway woods, and driver, am I suppose to feel like I am hitting down on the ball more than with the weight normal? (the obvious answer to me is yes)

You won't if you push your hips forward on the downswing. Again, it's a big shallowing move. You hear a lot of the time from people who "try" Stack and Tilt but can't hit their drivers, well, this is why. They do better with their irons because at least they're 60/40 at impact, but 60/40 at impact won't help with the driver - they'll hit down on it and the ball won't go in the air at all.

With the driver you have to get even MORE weight forward with your upper center staying in place. More of what we call "secondary axis tilt."

Erik, on the other thread in reference to me over swinging and closing the club face you stated that I am likely not taking my hands back on the arc and that if I just spin from there I can also be coming over the top.

There are a couple of places on here, but the best may be the "deep hands explained" drill which is linked to from the "terms" thing in my signature.

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...ands-Explained Basically, if your hands don't trace the arc up (back, and IN) on the backswing, they're not in a great position to hit from the inside. If they're already too far outside, how can you get them back in during your downswing?

[laxbballgolf]

Roughly left heel for the driver to a half a ball from the center or so for a wedge. Same as before, most likely.

A half ball forward from the center of the stance or a half ball back?

[iacas]

A half ball forward from the center of the stance or a half ball back?

Forward. Center of your heels is about as far back as you'd ever want to play a full swing.

[JGus]

Erik, thanks for taking the time out to answer my questions and explain things!

Can it start left (~55%) and then MOVE MORE LEFT (~90%)? That requires a little "pushing off" with the right foot but not a ton. Can you straighten (not lock but lessen the flex) and then re-flex the right knee a little?

The majority of time I can start left and move farther left even if the knee is hurting, it's not actually the pain preventing me from moving/pushing left, it's my inconsistency of not doing it all the time. The pain only really affects me at the top of my backswing when the weight is shifted to the right and my right knee doesn't straighten, which I have had a tendency of doing, but when my left knee moves towards the ball (instead of forward or straight left) it helps me to straighten out my right knee leading to a smoother transition back to the left. When I swing with a nice smooth tempo it all works very well, but the main thing I am working on now is ingraining that tempo into my swing (head), rather than over swinging.

Agree with the spinning and coming over the top, it definitely happens when I over swing. Also agree and understand about the swing path, I would say 50% of the time I do have an in to out path, I think (and hope) continuously working on my tempo helps the other 50%. I will readjust my ball position, I was playing wedges and my 8-9 iron probably a half/full ball back of center before, but I did that because I wasn't getting my hips forward enough. As for the driver and getting forward (90/10) at impact, will add that to the list to work on. And will re-read the "deep hands" thread to get a better understanding, as well as work on the wrist movements. Thanks again for the insight!

[canadianpro]

Hey Guys

How about Graeme McDowell's S&T; principles? Another example of the swing model that we are embracing.

PB

[mvmac]

McDowell looks pretty good. Hands in, clubhead out, straight right knee

[MMouse]

Stack and Tilt has a critical flaw right now that may keep it from ever catching on. That's the availability of teaching pros who can help correct flaws and advance the student as they need to, rather than allow them to learn wrong habits and swing flaws.

I can go to my course and take a lesson with my club pro, as I did this past Monday morning. Within 20 minutes of lesson I was hitting the ball more consistently, straighter and farther than I ever really have. All of this while using a "conventional" swing. After that I went to try it out and shot par on the first two holes ( only did 2 due to time constraints ) The first hole is the hardest hole on the course and I have never come close to par.

I'm not discounting that Stack and Tilt is or isn't an effective method to swing the golf club, but the problem comes in when the student has problems. If I were to continue with it I could learn it wrong from the beginning and never learn it right because there is no pro here to help me out.


Because of all of this, I think I'm going to ditch S&T.; The ideas seem sound, but without that teaching element it just won't work for me expecially with how poorly made the DVD's were for learning the method in my opinion. All they did was talk about the swing. They need to remake them and focus on drills etc to teach the swing. Instead they seemed focused on explaining it and why it was right. I don't care why it is right. Teach me how to effectively do it and if I shoot better golf, then it's right. Swing mechanics, weight, tilt, club face angle etc all of it means absolutely NOTHING if I can't use it to learn to play better golf.

This may be where Stack and Tilt loses in the long run. Ya the principles seem sound and the swing is probably great. If I can't learn it properly with someone to help me than what good is it? The local pro can help me shoot better golf, so in the end local pros everywhere will likely to continue to win over Stack and Tilt for that sole reason.

[stacks04]

mmouse, what were some of the things your pro had you doing to hit the ball more consistently?

[MMouse]

All we worked on was my backswing turn involving the hips and right leg. My inconsistencies have come mostly from hitting alot of fat shots and the odd thin shot.

Even before Stack and Tilt I would always straighten my right leg during the backswing. We focused on keeping the bend in the right leg and shifting the weight back naturally, just by allowing it to shift with the hip/shoulder turn. From there my natural swing combined with that allowed me to hit the ball very consistently and probably a club to a club and a half further than I was.

Again, Stack and Tilt is what it is and I'm not discounting it's credibility. Simply pointing out one of the major flaws it has at this point of it's growth which is a lack of resources widely available to help potentials users use it properly.
I feel VERY strongly that they should remake the DVD and make it more drill focused to teach the average user how to implement it. That alone would help the growth of the swing. The DVD as it is now is TERRIBLE. I haven't picked up the book so I can't comment on that.