The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[trickyputt]

[QUOTE name="iacas" url="/t/30537/the-stack-and-tilt-golf-swing/1692#post_1118474"]   If you (anyone) adopt S[/QUOTE] Iacas. I am well aware of my playing hcp. I come to terms with the fact that playing a round of golf, I will most likely hit a ball or 2/3 that are s@#$t. Golf is a diffecult game. I have 2 (probably more, but these two are killing me so to speak) issues. 1. I do not step away when I am not feeling comfortable at address. Still hit the ball and, no surprise there, the result is awfull. Such a simple thing of stepping away and I can not get it in my system. 2. I have learned, also through this forum, things about weight and pressure. I try to have a more centered turn and I am not trying to fight pressure in my right foot. Like a sprinter coming of the blocks or a baseball pitcher pushing of. But what happend in a round, is that I get stuck on my right foot. pressure stays back, I hang back on my right foot, low point of the swing coms in front of the ball. I hate it. Yesterday I played 18 holes and for the first 9, i didn't take out the driver, was absolutely killing the h3, accurate and long! And suddenly I found myself hanging on my right foot.  And I do not know where that suddenly comes from in the middle of a round. Very, very strange. I wish there was something that i could use to get that golfkiller out of my system.

I am glad you posted that, because I fight that fight in the sense that my choices available on a shot always include my hero shot, and I talk myself into trouble (but fun!) a lot of times. I bet my choices cost me 10 strokes per round sometimes. Like you, once I began to see clearly enough that there was a pattern, my focus on the shot choice has increased, and when I make a bad one now I find that half of them may well have had a mechanical flaw but the other bad half were caused by me choosing to try something before I even swing that is harder to do as my resulting failure demonstrates. This has caused me to walk to the next shot reflecting on my shot choice rather than a mechanical point like I used to do. This has added an interesting dimension to the nuts and bolts of the game for me, because technically shot choice is an inherent component of a swing isnt it?

[taxgolf]

Well, let me give an example of a hole I played last saturday. A par 5 with a lot of water in front of the green. I hit a decent drive, but my second shot came a bit right in wet and a bit thick rough. I had a fairly clear shot to the green, but to get to the pin, I had to fade it a bit. The shot was around 175 yards, roughly 160 yards to carry the water and wind coming in. The front part of the water would be around 125 yards.

The thought never went through my mind to lay up in front of the water, go with a pitch to the pin, give myself a chance for par but in a worst case, accept the bogey (the pitch over the water didn't scare me). Instead, the only thing on my mind, was to go with my third shot for the pin from a pretty difficult lie. I was pretty confident that I was able to get to the green, even if my bal wasn't in a good spot. But somehow, tension creeped in, guess I had to force it a bit and so I got stucked on my right side. I topped the ball, it rolled a pretty distance, got to the green with a I9 and a 2 put made the bogey.

I was gutted by my third shot, and probably would have the same result if I had used a PW and again a PW to go for the green. So, course management is still a thing I can work on. In the past, I would probably mock on that third shot. But I seem to cope with that better and better.

I played that shot, there is nothing I can change the outcome, it makes no sense to keep playing it over and over. Just play the next shot and focus on it. In doing so, it seems I can eliminate swing flaws. In the past, when I entered a phase of swing flaws, I got stuck in it and I wasn't able to get out of it.

[iacas]

2. I have learned, also through this forum, things about weight and pressure. I try to have a more centered turn and I am not trying to fight pressure in my right foot. Like a sprinter coming of the blocks or a baseball pitcher pushing of. But what happend in a round, is that I get stuck on my right foot. pressure stays back, I hang back on my right foot, low point of the swing coms in front of the ball. I hate it. Yesterday I played 18 holes and for the first 9, i didn't take out the driver, was absolutely killing the h3, accurate and long! And suddenly I found myself hanging on my right foot.

Well, you've basically either kind of got to learn to do it properly or you need to learn to compensate for it - play the ball back in your stance and live with hitting the ball lower than you otherwise would/should/could.

[ghalfaire]

My 2 ¢ is that, for me, the SnT swing helps keep my head still and helps me not sway (same thing I guess).  So I put a little more weigh forward and just swing pretty much as I always have.  That's the feel anyway but since I have access to a camera I can see it isn't quite true. My lead shoulder does tend to go more down as apposed to around, but it isn't something I try to do.  I also in practice mode concentrate on "staying centered" over the ball during the back swing.  I was never able to achieve this "no sway" thing and still try to accomplish the proper weight shift with the more conventional swing.  Final comment is the SnT has helped me quite a bit and my handicap index has decreased about 1.5 strokes in the last 6-8 weeks. I can't see that I have lost any distance and am better with the irons (more GIR from drives in the fairway).  I am not sure I am a "real" SnT guy, I just set up with more weight on the front foot and feel like I swing the club pretty much the same way I as before.  Just to add a surprise it was my teaching pro that advised me to do this.  His words were, "I don't really teach the SnT but I think in your case you might benefit from putting more weight on the left leg at set up".  And that is why I go to this particular pro as he tries to get his students to do what they can do as well as they can do it, e.g. he knows not everyone can swing a club like Ben Hogan.   I would add especially us older folks.

[DrvFrShow]

As messed up as my knees are, they cannot handle the lateral stresses of the modern golf swing. I'm at the end of the line. I had a lesson on Wed, and yep, he's teaching modern golf swing. It wasn't bad because we didn't do much, but after practice on Thurs, I was feeling burning over the former injured area again, so cold pack and stuff afterward. I was working the stuff in front of the mirror and hitting balls. I had been trying the S&T; stuff slow at home in front of my mirror over the past three weeks.

So today I gave it a shot - okay if this doesn't work I'm going under the knife and we'll write off this summer. Since I already do about three of the things in the S&T; swing in my natural swing, I just had to make sure my knee bent straight and not inward, and after duffing a few shots and a few hosel rockets which adjusted how far I was standing away from the ball. I slowed my tempo a bit, and started hitting some decent shots. I just had to stop myself and make sure my positions were right. These were like 75-80% swings with a 7 iron and I was getting carry distances beyond what I was getting before. A 160 yd carry 7 iron is a nice shot - of course I know part of this is because I have it delofted a few degrees at impact.

I don't know how anyone can say this isn't a powerful swing. It makes Key 1 easy. Key 2 is automatic. It makes Key 3 easier. I don't know if I'm doing Key 4 because I didn't have a video camera - the ball went on either a straight or draw path unless I pushed or hit a hosel rocket. So I'm having trouble with Key 5.

But for one day on it I can't say it was bad. And the best part was one day after a sore knee, my knee did not hurt after a practice session.

We'll have to have a talk about my knee in a lot of detail given the physical therapists verdict yesterday.

[boogielicious]

As messed up as my knees are, they cannot handle the lateral stresses of the modern golf swing. I'm at the end of the line. I had a lesson on Wed, and yep, he's teaching modern golf swing. It wasn't bad because we didn't do much, but after practice on Thurs, I was feeling burning over the former injured area again, so cold pack and stuff afterward. I was working the stuff in front of the mirror and hitting balls. I had been trying the S&T; stuff slow at home in front of my mirror over the past three weeks.

So today I gave it a shot - okay if this doesn't work I'm going under the knife and we'll write off this summer. Since I already do about three of the things in the S&T; swing in my natural swing, I just had to make sure my knee bent straight and not inward, and after duffing a few shots and a few hosel rockets which adjusted how far I was standing away from the ball. I slowed my tempo a bit, and started hitting some decent shots. I just had to stop myself and make sure my positions were right. These were like 75-80% swings with a 7 iron and I was getting carry distances beyond what I was getting before. A 160 yd carry 7 iron is a nice shot - of course I know part of this is because I have it delofted a few degrees at impact.

I don't know how anyone can say this isn't a powerful swing. It makes Key 1 easy. Key 2 is automatic. It makes Key 3 easier. I don't know if I'm doing Key 4 because I didn't have a video camera - the ball went on either a straight or draw path unless I pushed or hit a hosel rocket. So I'm having trouble with Key 5.

But for one day on it I can't say it was bad. And the best part was one day after a sore knee, my knee did not hurt after a practice session.

We'll have to have a talk about my knee in a lot of detail given the physical therapists verdict yesterday.

Julia,

I have bad knees too, arthritis and a torn meniscus in my left knee.  What really helps me is flaring my feet so as I move my weight forward, my left knee is flexing straight over my toes.  This alleviates the side stress and rotational torque.  It is not stack & tilt at all.  I credit @mvmac the most on this as he had me work on it a few years ago after an Evolvr lesson.  The knee is bending the way it wants to bend.

That, my PT exercises and always icing after a round have kept me from going back for surgery.

[DrvFrShow]

The bone spur is acting up. It's going under the knife. I'm done.

[brettfan]

I have been working with an instructor for the last 5 months, a really great guy, but I was going backwards.  He had one way of teaching the swing and sort of demanded that I start from scratch with his method.  I stuck with it a long while (5 months of lessons and LOTS of practice on my part) but was not making any progress so I drifted away from him and went to more of a Stack and Tilt method (along with A LOT of great advice from this site).

I went by my instructors facility today to say "Hi" and he had me take a few swings on his video system.  After the first swing he said "looks like you got a stack-and-tilt thing going" and his face looked like we was smelling a vicious fart.  I told him that I was doing more of a "stack and tilt" thing and that it had helped a lot... handicap went down a full stroke in a month whereas with his instruction I was going sideways (at best).  Nontheless, he still told me that stack and tilt was a band-aid and would rob me of distance in the long-run.  I told him that distance is not a problem for me (always a pretty long hitter) but hitting it straight was an issue.  Since going to the stack and tilt I noticed no decline in distance but was much more solid in contact and more consistent... nontheless, the "I just smelled a smelly fart" face persisted.

My instructor is a great guy and knows a lot about the swing but I thought it was odd that he would have such a negative reaction when I told him I was doing great with a new swing... shouldn't he be able to help me tweak it and fix my flaws rather than look his nose down?  Or is it really so different that it is out of his realm (seems unlikely to me, but what do I know)?

In any case, I have taken 6 strokes off my best score ever (72!) and a full stroke off my handicap in the last month with my "hybrid" swing... shouldn't he recognize that he can work with me rather than change me?

Looking forward to feedback from the gallery...

Go Royals!!!

[DrvFrShow]

Funny, I just had a lesson today, and after going over my myriad of injuries in the past six months, my new instructor put me on the S&T; program. I got through the lesson without pain in my knee. ... I got through a 75 minute lesson without pain in my knee. I was very pleased with the progress I saw in the one lesson.

A lot of instructors don't like it. They say it isn't as powerful a swing. Maybe it isn't. But the question is this: are we playing from 7300 yds? No.

I'm playing from 5800 yds maximum and usually from 5200 yds so I really don't care as long as my shots are accurate. If I can get 12-14 GIRs/round I don't care.

If you're doing well with S&T; and you like it, find an instructor who can help you fine tune S&T.; You may have to call around. I think the nearest certified instructor to you is in St. Louis or in Irvine TX, but that doesn't mean others don't know the system.

[Golfingdad]

I've interacted with a pro at a local range that had a similar view. There definitely is a stigma towards that swing with a lot of people. If it's working for you, and if your instructor doesn't like it, couldn't help you, and as you said, only has one way to teach everybody, then I think you need to dump that guy and move on. Either way, good luck!

[Tomputt]

Hate to beat a dead horse but has anyone had any success with S & T?  I took several lessons and tried it for about a year...scores didn't get any better.  Went back to the old proven method of getting the weight on the rear leg during the back swing.  Scores improved.  I was video tapped with my S&T; swing...one bad aspect of it that there too much weight shifting going on. Start with most of the weight on the forward foot and you increase the real possibliity of the dreaded reverse pivot.  Also, it's not like S&T; is cathing fire with the Pro's. Sounds like the two guys who invented S&T; were just trying to reinvent the golf swing and make a buck off it.

[boogielicious]

Check out the above thread.

[iacas]

Hate to beat a dead horse but has anyone had any success with S & T?  I took several lessons and tried it for about a year...scores didn't get any better.  Went back to the old proven method of getting the weight on the rear leg during the back swing.  Scores improved.  I was video tapped with my S&T; swing...one bad aspect of it that there too much weight shifting going on. Start with most of the weight on the forward foot and you increase the real possibliity of the dreaded reverse pivot.  Also, it's not like S&T; is cathing fire with the Pro's. Sounds like the two guys who invented S&T; were just trying to reinvent the golf swing and make a buck off it.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/64993/weight-forward-using-swingcatalyst-and-sam-balance-lab-to-explain-pressure-throughout-the-swing

http://thesandtrap.com/t/65681/s-t-2-0-dvds-and-pressure-weight-forward-an-examination

[Tomputt]

Glad the s&T; is working for you.  I tried S&T; with lots of lessons and it went no where.  Went from 12 HC to 15 HP in 8 months.  Just started going back to the old method of getting the weight transferred to the rear foor during the backswing. Scores are going down.  At a recent golf instructors seminar there was a general consensus that using the S&T; causes a lack of power and because the way the body finishes the swing, overtime it has proven that the S&T; will develop into the dreaded reverse pivot.  I think the S&T; was more of a novel idea by these two guys to try and reinvent the golf swing and make a buck off of it.  It's not like S&T; has caught fire with professional golfers.

[iacas]

Glad the s&T; is working for you.

To whom are you responding?

Just started going back to the old method of getting the weight transferred to the rear foor during the backswing.

The links I included were partly to demonstrate the fact that pressure (and weight, but more so pressure) shifts to the trail foot in an S&T; swing as well.

At a recent golf instructors seminar there was a general consensus that using the S&T; causes a lack of power and because the way the body finishes the swing, overtime it has proven that the S&T; will develop into the dreaded reverse pivot.

That's not really true, no.

I think the S&T; was more of a novel idea by these two guys to try and reinvent the golf swing and make a buck off of it.  It's not like S&T; has caught fire with professional golfers.

Yes, you said that already…

Check this out:

[ghalfaire]

Glad the s&T; is working for you.  I tried S&T; with lots of lessons and it went no where.  Went from 12 HC to 15 HP in 8 months.  Just started going back to the old method of getting the weight transferred to the rear foor during the backswing. Scores are going down.  At a recent golf instructors seminar there was a general consensus that using the S&T; causes a lack of power and because the way the body finishes the swing, overtime it has proven that the S&T; will develop into the dreaded reverse pivot.  I think the S&T; was more of a novel idea by these two guys to try and reinvent the golf swing and make a buck off of it.  It's not like S&T; has caught fire with professional golfers.

While the SnT has helped me it isn't for everybody.  I guess I'd also say most don't do everything the SnT videos describe.  The only SnT technique I incorporate on purpose is to put more weight forward in my set up.  I then just take my normal swing but of course that is feel and not real.

I has some severe injuries to my left leg early in life and it is weaker than the right and slightly shorter (about a half to three quarter inch).  So as I aged this hasn't gotten much better, most things don't as you age, and it was getting more and more difficult to make a conventional swing, consistently.  So for me the SnT has saved my game and I am on the road to my old handicap.  But I wouldn't recommend it for those that can consistently do a more conventional swing because there are a lot more instructors available out there.

[Tomputt]

glad the S&T; is working for you.Lately there is talk (golf channel recently and Golf digest), that there is way too much weight shifting going on in S & T which leads to more complications.  Weight towards front prior to the seing, then get some weight going back and forward again with more weight going forward. Way too much shifting going on.  Plus, the S&T; can lead to a reverse pivot.

[taxgolf]

glad the S&T; is working for you.Lately there is talk (golf channel recently and Golf digest), that there is way too much weight shifting going on in S & T which leads to more complications.  Weight towards front prior to the seing, then get some weight going back and forward again with more weight going forward. Way too much shifting going on.  Plus, the S&T; can lead to a reverse pivot.

Uhm, no it does not. I think you should get your info straight. Ah well.