The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[iacas]

glad the S&T; is working for you.Lately there is talk (golf channel recently and Golf digest), that there is way too much weight shifting going on in S & T which leads to more complications.  Weight towards front prior to the seing, then get some weight going back and forward again with more weight going forward. Way too much shifting going on.  Plus, the S&T; can lead to a reverse pivot.

Please, you seem to keep posting the same things, and don't seem to be reading what's being written. Scroll up and read my posts, please.

[Tomputt]

As I said if the S&T; is working for you, that is great.  Just saying that S&T; may have peaked. Conventional tried and true proven methods are still used by over 90% of the golfing population.

[mvmac]

As I said if the S&T; is working for you, that is great.  Just saying that S&T; may have peaked. Conventional tried and true proven methods are still used by over 90% of the golfing population.

Yes but who are you responding to?

[Shindig]

As I said if the S&T; is working for you, that is great.  Just saying that S&T; may have peaked. Conventional tried and true proven methods are still used by over 90% of the golfing population.

I have four problems with this post. First, the S&T; swing [i]is[/i] a conventional golf swing. I don't know where you get the idea that it isn't. Second, I wonder where your 90% number comes from. There's a non-trivial fraction of the golfing population who I'm surprised hold the golf club by the right end on their swings. Are they counted in your 90% figure? Because they definitely don't do S&T;, but I'm not sure I'd want to cite them as being on my side for a swing debate. And again, where did it come from? Is there a credible citation for it, or do I need a doctor with a flashlight to show me where the number originated? Third, S&T; and related swings (e.g., its very close cousin, Ben Hogan's swing) are tried and true. Finally, please quote the post(s) you're responding to so we can follow the conversation. There are almost 2000 comments in this thread, and I'd like to be able to place what you're saying in context. That's what the "quote" button is for. I'm glad you're on the board and want to have this conversation, but please indicate what you're saying and to whom when you do so. Thanks!

[ghalfaire]

glad the S&T; is working for you.Lately there is talk (golf channel recently and Golf digest), that there is way too much weight shifting going on in S & T which leads to more complications.  Weight towards front prior to the seing, then get some weight going back and forward again with more weight going forward. Way too much shifting going on.  Plus, the S&T; can lead to a reverse pivot.

Yes that has always be the "rap" by SnT detractors, a reverse pivot.  But I don't see that as more likely because you put weigh forward in your set up than it would be with a "conventional" swing.   I think there are many variations in the "conventional" swing on the tour today.  As pointed out in several earlier posts in this thread several exceptional pros have incorporated in their swings "moves" that are part of the SnT swing.  So I don't see the SnT as an "unconventional" swing, just a different approach to making solid contact with a golf ball.  But again this works for me and maybe not for you.  But like any swing it take practice to stay in tune.

[acerimusdux]

Yes that has always be the "rap" by SnT detractors, a reverse pivot.  But I don't see that as more likely because you put weigh forward in your set up than it would be with a "conventional" swing.

Yes, it seems the opposite to me. It's more difficult to reverse pivot if you have the weight forward.

The reverse pivot comes when the head goes forward and the hips go back . That's going to be more likely for golfers who are actively trying to shift their weight back in the backswing and then forward in the downswing, as the head and upper body tend to move a bit in the opposite direction in order to keep balance. Essentially, it's usually caused by hip sway.

The "stack" in stack and tilt, getting that lead hip forward at the start, and keeping the weight stacked over the ball, typically prevents this.

[taxgolf]

Back to the original topic.

When you want to swing harder, get a little more distance, does this sound right?

I put a little extra pressure on the armpits so as not to loose connection and have the clubhead swing more out towards the ball (which promotes heel contact).

Sometimes doing this makes me tighten the area around the elbows and I don't get full extension from the arms, toe hit.

But generally, swing harder, more "connected"?

I recently incorporated an acceleration from the top of my backswing. Trying to hit harder. At first I needed to find my balance. To me, it seems after impact my body is turned through the swing, some kind of centrifugical force. In the begining it felt unnatural, a bit affraid to hit it harder, now that I have adepted more and more quickly. I played my best round ever last Saturday, a round of 85. I notice crisp contact, better and more disctance control, more disctance. I gained extra yardage with every club. But I am astonished by the crisp balcontact. And of course, I do sometimes have a mis hit. Goes with the hcp.

[Tomputt]

Yes, it seems the opposite to me. It's more difficult to reverse pivot if you have the weight forward.

The reverse pivot comes when the head goes forward and the hips go back. That's going to be more likely for golfers who are actively trying to shift their weight back in the backswing and then forward in the downswing, as the head and upper body tend to move a bit in the opposite direction in order to keep balance. Essentially, it's usually caused by hip sway.

The "stack" in stack and tilt, getting that lead hip forward at the start, and keeping the weight stacked over the ball, typically prevents this.

I see what you mean with weight forward during backswing.  I still say over time it wil lead to a reverse pivot.  Picture a baseball hitter at bat with his weight on his forward foot.  As the ball approaches, he would automatically shift to his rear foot.  Instant reverse pivot!

[acerimusdux]

I see what you mean with weight forward during backswing.  I still say over time it wil lead to a reverse pivot.  Picture a baseball hitter at bat with his weight on his forward foot.  As the ball approaches, he would automatically shift to his rear foot.  Instant reverse pivot!

I can see where that could happen, but it comes from shifting the weight in the wrong direction. I think it's fundamental to the stack and tilt method that you start with the weight somewhat forward, but then shift it more forward during the downswing.

For myself, I found "stack and tilt" to be a useful starting point to get to good contact. I did find eventually that I am better off (particularly with longer clubs), if instead of tilting the left shoulder down and keeping "stacked",  I instead turn more flat, take a full turn back and really rotate the left arm going back (keeping the left wrist flat to bowed), while allowing the center of the chest to move back a bit during that turn, rather than stay "stacked". But really only the turn has changed. I feel like my hips and my head are staying in the same position during this backswing as they were when doing stack and tilt. So the same balance is then there in the downswing when I turn through. A lot of the "feels" of stack and tilt are still there.

And even there, I maybe only "feel" like I am turning very flat, but I have some bend at the hip so it doesn't look as flat as it feels, the shoulders are really only "flat" in relation to the torso.  The is just the "feel" that is working for me. It gets the swing path a little more shallow than stack and tilt, and for me at the moment seems to be producing a path that is very straight at contact. This week, anyway, lol.

[Mike P]

I'm looking for any info on wrist hing and cocking?  S & T book I think mentions wrist movement being just hinging up and down, but no side to side(tail wagging) cocking of the wrist.  I think that is dorsiflexion?

[ghalfaire]

I can see where that could happen, but it comes from shifting the weight in the wrong direction. I think it's fundamental to the stack and tilt method that you start with the weight somewhat forward, but then shift it more forward during the downswing.

For myself, I found "stack and tilt" to be a useful starting point to get to good contact. I did find eventually that I am better off (particularly with longer clubs), if instead of tilting the left shoulder down and keeping "stacked",  I instead turn more flat, take a full turn back and really rotate the left arm going back (keeping the left wrist flat to bowed), while allowing the center of the chest to move back a bit during that turn, rather than stay "stacked". But really only the turn has changed. I feel like my hips and my head are staying in the same position during this backswing as they were when doing stack and tilt. So the same balance is then there in the downswing when I turn through. A lot of the "feels" of stack and tilt are still there.

And even there, I maybe only "feel" like I am turning very flat, but I have some bend at the hip so it doesn't look as flat as it feels, the shoulders are really only "flat" in relation to the torso.  The is just the "feel" that is working for me. It gets the swing path a little more shallow than stack and tilt, and for me at the moment seems to be producing a path that is very straight at contact.

I agree that with the longer clubs and in particular the driver, thinking about "right shoulder down" doesn't work well, at least for me.  I try to think of staying "centered" over the ball instead of flat swing.  That is because when I try to swing flat I tend to sway but if I think stay centered I seem to make better contact.  Sometimes it is helpful for me to think about swinging around my left hip with the driver although that isn't conventional wisdom.

I'm looking for any info on wrist hing and cocking?  S & T book I think mentions wrist movement being just hinging up and down, but no side to side(tail wagging) cocking of the wrist.  I think that is dorsiflexion?

For me any swings thoughts about doing anything with the hands during the swing will eventually, sometimes immediately, lead to disaster.  I try to make the first back swing move as pushing the club with my left side and "one piece" take away.  For me one piece means the left hand. wrist, arm, and left shoulder stay in alignment as one body member for at least the first foot of two of club head movement.  My hands just take care of themselves.

I believe Dorisflexion you mentioned is holding your wrist flat and moving your hand such that it moves the thumb back toward the elbow.

[Lihu]

I've been wondering about Stack and Tilt, and have been subscribing to this site's swing training. So, if this method I'm learning is some offshoot of ST, so be it. I don't really care one way or another. It's a comfortable swing that I think can easily carry my current game into my 70s or even longer. Good for the swing, and I don't care what it's called. Well, what I'm wondering is why so many instructors discuss it with such disdain?

[Kujan]

Because it's not a conventional swing. No more than 45% of your weight on your back leg at setup and less and less as you swing. Some think you lose power by under utilizing your back leg. It also doesn't translate to the driver when most of us are trying to hit up on the ball.

[Lihu]

Because it's not a conventional swing. No more than 45% of your weight on your back leg at setup and less and less as you swing. Some think you lose power by under utilizing your back leg. It also doesn't translate to the driver when most of us are trying to hit up on the ball.

How so? It seems like that would be a function of where you tee up?

[Kujan]

Try it yourself and see if you drive the ball to low and lose distance.

[Mr. Desmond]

Try it yourself and see if you drive the ball to low and lose distance.

I think the weight thing has been debunked ... the S&T; model, Grant Waite, has a large majority of his weight in the back foot at the top of the backswing...

The S&T; guys don't want to admit it ... they know it, just haven't said much about it.

[iacas]

I think the weight thing has been debunked ... the S&T; model, Grant Waite, has a large majority of his weight in the back foot at the top of the backswing...

The S&T; guys don't want to admit it ... they know it, just haven't said much about it.

In fact, they get downright mad at you about it and say and do a bunch of evil, mean things.

Ask me how I know.    

[ghalfaire]

Because it's not a conventional swing. No more than 45% of your weight on your back leg at setup and less and less as you swing. Some think you lose power by under utilizing your back leg. It also doesn't translate to the driver when most of us are trying to hit up on the ball.

I am not sure there is any such thing as a "conventional swing" and if you tried to describe one you would get a lot of conversation with golfers of differing opinions.  As to loss of distance with S&T;, that has not been  my personal experience.  Maybe some at first but it would seem that any loss in club head speed has been more than made up for in efficiency of finding the sweet spot at contact.  In any case golf is about how many, not how far.  I have noted that with longer clubs, in particular the driver, you need some different swing thoughts to keep it in play.   But for many that is true regardless of the swing they think they are using.