The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[deronsizemore]

Is it the initial direction that changes, or the amount of sidespin, since the higher lofted club will impart more backspin than a low lofted one?

I think that's an accurate assesment. The ball is always going to have backspin which get it, and keeps it in the air. Depending on the loft of the club, it will either have more or less backspin and as a result of having less backspin (on say a 4 iron) more sidespin can be introduced if the difference in face and path are enough to create it. It's still possible (I think) to hit a big draw with a wedge, it's just more difficult with the additional backspin you're creating. You'd need a bigger difference between the face and path with a wedge to create the same amount of curve. Hope that makes sense. Makes sense in my head anway (which isn't saying much.

) Hopefully someone will fill in any gaps in my analogy if it's incorrect.

[halcon]

I think that's an accurate assesment. The ball is always going to have backspin which get it, and keeps it in the air. Depending on the loft of the club, it will either have more or less backspin and as a result of having less backspin (on say a 4 iron) more sidespin can be introduced if the difference in face and path are enough to create it. It's still possible (I think) to hit a big draw with a wedge, it's just more difficult with the additional backspin you're creating. You'd need a bigger difference between the face and path with a wedge to create the same amount of curve. Hope that makes sense. Makes sense in my head anway (which isn't saying much.

It makes a lot of sense to me as well. My problem is that I am not generating enough side spin to have a draw (maybe because of the additional backspin), but instead I am getting a push-fade (which also requires side spin). Is it possible that I am placing the ball too back in my stance, and this generates my problem? Again, I narrow my stance for short irons, and I also been playing the ball inside my front foot (as opposed to playing the ball near my front heel, as Hogan/Nicklaus recommend).

[deronsizemore]

It makes a lot of sense to me as well. My problem is that I am not generating enough side spin to have a draw (maybe because of the additional backspin), but instead I am getting a push-fade (which also requires side spin). Is it possible that I am placing the ball too back in my stance, and this generates my problem? Again, I narrow my stance for short irons, and I also been playing the ball inside my front foot (as opposed to playing the ball near my front heel, as Hogan/Nicklaus recommend).

I'm in need of clarification. You asked if you're placing the ball too far back in your stance, but then said that you narrow your stance and play the ball inside your front foot. If you're playing the ball off of your front foot, then that's not considered "back in your stance." I just wanted to clarify what you actually meant incase there were typoes.

It's really hard to tell without seeing your swing though. A lot of people think they're hitting a push fade when they're actually just aimed right of the target (for a right hander) and they're simply hitting a straight fade. That's why it's so hard to answer without video. Basically what it comes down too though is that your clubface is open relative to your path; that gives you a fade. So your path could actually be fine, but if your clubface is open too much, the ball will start right and then fade. That's assuming your alignment is fine.

[halcon]

I'm in need of clarification. You asked if you're placing the ball too far back in your stance, but then said that you narrow your stance and play the ball inside your front foot. If you're playing the ball off of your front foot, then that's not considered "back in your stance." I just wanted to clarify what you actually meant incase there were typoes.

I used to play my short irons with a narrow stance and the ball just inside my left foot. When I switched to S&T, I played the same narrow stance with the ball back from my normal position, towards the center of my stance.

I went to the range today and hit some shots with a little wider stance, ball positioned about two balls inside of my left foot. I hit it better, but straight (in line or a little push sometimes), with the occasional push-fade. I use a stick to align my body to the target when I am in the range, so my alignment is ok. I also hit my 4i, and my good shots were push-draws, as they are supposed to be. However, I am still having problems with the driver, so I still need to work in my footwork / hips, and maybe that is affecting my short irons as well. Thanks for your help.

[mvmac]

However, I am still having problems with the driver, so I still need to work in my footwork / hips, and maybe that is affecting my short irons as well.

I would agree it is more of the motion rather than the width of the stance. Make sure the hands are deep enough on the backswing, centered turn, push the hips forward with the head staying centered. If the upper centers move forward then you would start to see some of the push cuts and inconsistent shots with the driver. Good video to check out

[halcon]

I would agree it is more of the motion rather than the width of the stance. Make sure the hands are deep enough on the backswing, centered turn, push the hips forward with the head staying centered. If the upper centers move forward then you would start to see some of the push cuts and inconsistent shots with the driver. Good video to check out

This is a very interesting video, thanks a lot. It is definitely different from what I understood from the book, and I will give it a try. I have a few questions in regards to this video:

- Dave is suggesting to tilt the spine towards the right (back tilt) at setup; isn't this back tilt completely lost in the back swing? To me, the back swing tilts the spine towards the target (or at least, it feels like that), so the back tilt will be cancelled progressively as the right leg extends, actually stacking the hips under the upper center. - Another misunderstood concept to me is hitting the ball on a descending path. I was trying to hit the ball on an ascending path (which was obviously very difficult to me, since I am trying to hit a draw), and I was, of course, hitting pull-fades. My question is, do I have to change my driver's loft to retain the height I am used to? Since the ball will be hit with the club face going down, more lift will be generated (back spin), so this might counteract the lower launch angle; however, more spin = less overall distance, am I right?

[Zeph]

- Dave is suggesting to tilt the spine towards the right (back tilt) at setup; isn't this back tilt completely lost in the back swing? To me, the back swing tilts the spine towards the target (or at least, it feels like that), so the back tilt will be cancelled progressively as the right leg extends, actually stacking the hips under the upper center.

The spine tilting back is a result of the hips being preset a bit more forward, you don't want to keep the hips centered, and just tilt the upper body back. The upper body being tilted back is an effect of the hips being preset more forward, so that you lose some of that tilt doesn't matter. If you stop the video at the top, the upper body is still tilted more back than on an iron shot

- Another misunderstood concept to me is hitting the ball on a descending path. I was trying to hit the ball on an ascending path (which was obviously very difficult to me, since I am trying to hit a draw), and I was, of course, hitting pull-fades. My question is, do I have to change my driver's loft to retain the height I am used to? Since the ball will be hit with the club face going down, more lift will be generated (back spin), so this might counteract the lower launch angle; however, more spin = less overall distance, am I right?

There are two ways to approach the driver. You can go with low loft and ascending into the ball, which give less carry, but more roll. Higher loft with descending, or hitting it at the bottom, which give more carry (higher launch angle, more spin), but less roll.

The first option is perhaps what give the most distance, but I would suggest it is a more difficult way to swing. Also, you can hit the ball a mile with the second option too. I think the difference on two purely struck shots are not very big. I suggest the lofted descending shot since it emphasize hitting slightly down on the ball, which is more similar to the swing you use with irons. A lower launch angle will also give more disparity depending on the landing area. If it lands on an upslope, it might stop short, if it lands on a downslope, it can run very far. A higher launch angle and more spin will overall give more consistent distance. With a 9.5º driver, I don't think it should be a problem. What you are trying to do and really do is often not the same, unless you have recorded your swing on a machine that register if you are hitting down or up on the ball. Too low loft when hitting down can result in not getting the ball high enough, but you'll just have to try and see how it works. When people try hitting up on the ball, they generally start flipping and hanging back with the weight, which is exactly the opposite of what you want to do. Here is another video which explains some things:

[Stretch]

Good video to check out.

James has got the slo-mo modeling thing

down !

[mvmac]

This is a very interesting video, thanks a lot. It is definitely different from what I understood from the book, and I will give it a try. I have a few questions in regards to this video:

Pre-seting the hips forward shallows out the angle of attack. A decending path of 1-2* is hardly hitting downward, you are probably getting steeper than that when you are hitting the pull fades. Nothing good happens when you try to hit up on the ball. Like Zeph said, hanging back and losing the wedge. If you can do this correctly you should decrease you spin rate and start hitting it higher. No need to change driver due to too much spin or too low a launch angle. Set the hips a little forward, hands forward do the same backswing procedure and on the way down push the hips forward and keep the hands forward. All the big hitters on the PGA tour have the hands forward at impact, flying wedge. No one is hiting "up". It may look that way to some because of what is going on with the secondary tilt. The spine is tilted away from the target but the weight moving towards the target, hands and hips forward.

[Arthur]

Would the stack and tilt swing work with Persimmon woods and drivers? I love the look, feel and sound of wood hitting a golf ball so much more than metal and Louisville Golf makes them with graphite shafts. Just don't want to buy one if it won't work with SnT. On the other hand my current woods ain't working so well with it either. Thanks for these videos, hope they help.

[Zeph]

Ben Hogan used a lot of the S&T principles, in fact, his swing is one of the models for Stack & Tilt. I guess that answers your question.

[Stretch]

I've never had much of a problem hitting the driver in (my imperfect implementation of) the S&T pattern. It's probably the best part of my game. I do battle a bit with fairway woods off the deck, though. Do the same general setup principles in the driver video apply for those shots too?

[iacas]

I've never had much of a problem hitting the driver in (my imperfect implementation of) the S&T pattern. It's probably the best part of my game. I do battle a bit with fairway woods off the deck, though. Do the same general setup principles in the driver video apply for those shots too?

The principles are the same. The driver requires you to do some of them the "most." With a wedge you can get away with no linear hip push, for example, but not really with a driver. The ball position changes, so if it's 55/45 at setup for a 7-iron, and 60/40 or 65/35, then a fairway wood fits in there roughly the same as the ball position. If you play your ball position just back of the driver, 59.5/40.5?..

[mvmac]

Would the stack and tilt swing work with Persimmon woods and drivers? I love the look, feel and sound of wood hitting a golf ball so much more than metal and Louisville Golf makes them with graphite shafts. Just don't want to buy one if it won't work with SnT. On the other hand my current woods ain't working so well with it either. Thanks for these videos, hope they help.

Yes, the swing will work with persimmon. Same principles. The S&T swing is modeled after many players that had success in the 40's,50's and 60's.

[iacas]

[saevel25]

Why is it called the flying wedge? Just curious about why naming it that...

Don't look so tense ;)

[iacas]

Why is it called the flying wedge? Just curious about why naming it that...

Because it's shaped like a wedge (a triangle) and it's moving through space, or "flying."

Yeah, I look like a picture. In trying not to be distracting I was somewhat distracting. But I nailed the exits, so pffft.

[majorchamp]

Nice! I thought that was a great presentation and explanation. A pet peeve of mine is when example videos (for anything in life) go to extremes to make sure the point gets across, because then neutral people like myself have to connect the dots to determine where we fall in the problem/solution category. When the release happens in the video above, the club is going SO low and so far left...I don't know how realistic that is for most golfers. You guys are teachers (I'm not) so maybe you see that very often. I personally release early in the swing as has been noted like 100 times on here :), but the lowest point in my follow through looks like this

and my club actually begins to move vertical to the point where the shaft is pointing straight up at the sky (from dtl view). Now, I have a Tom Lehman type follow through, so trying to work on turning more "around" my body on the follow through like Erik does in that video is something that has been very hard for me to do. And based on my existing release pattern + trying to follow through in that manner...maybe my club angle would be MUCH lower and more horizontal like Erik has shown around 1:09 in the video. I can tell you right now if I was to rotate around my body more on the follow through based on my existing release pattern, my ball will be heading 100 yards left :)