The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[outlaw1984]

how do i get the shoulders right, if i tilt to the left and extend, i feel all bunched up in the chest with my arms.........

iacas: can you do a youtube video on how to get the shoulder's right and what would be wrong....

thanks

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by ceedee

About one ball lenght behind centerline.

Compared to other irons theres maybe 2 balls difference with ball position.

Could be your problem there. Might try gradually moving it up a little - a ball or so at a time - and see if that helps any. One ball back of center may just indicate that your clubface hasn't had the time to close enough yet so your path is inside-out and you're face is just slightly too open relative to that path or square to that path so you get the balls flying out to the right. I try to play my wedges maybe a ball forward of center (relative to my chest, not my feet) but everyone is different of course.

[ceedee]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Could be your problem there. Might try gradually moving it up a little - a ball or so at a time - and see if that helps any. One ball back of center may just indicate that your clubface hasn't had the time to close enough yet so your path is inside-out and you're face is just slightly too open relative to that path or square to that path so you get the balls flying out to the right. I try to play my wedges maybe a ball forward of center (relative to my chest, not my feet) but everyone is different of course.

Thx I will try that.

[Mikeod5785]

Stack and tilt is a gimmick, and a garbage swing

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Mikeod5785

Stack and tilt is a gimmick, and a garbage swing

Great!

Now let's move on to informative posts.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by Mikeod5785

Stack and tilt is a gimmick, and a garbage swing

Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, I suppose. Since you feel it's garbage, would you care to enlighten the rest of us to the swing theory you subscribe to?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Mikeod5785

Stack and tilt is a gimmick, and a garbage swing

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, I suppose. Since you feel it's garbage, would you care to enlighten the rest of us to the swing theory you subscribe to?

Please don't.

Deron ... go read his "man o man" thread and you'll realize he is an imbecilic troll ... you don't want to waste your time.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Please don't.

Deron ... go read his "man o man" thread and you'll realize he is an imbecilic troll ... you don't want to waste your time.

Thanks. Had no idea.

Mikeod5785 , Please disregard my question.

[Beachcomber]

LOL

[outlaw1984]

Hey everyone,

I've played golf for 2 summers now....probably more last summer than this....but anyhow.....Read Stack and Tilt book, watched the dvd's, read all the various post on here.....anyway i don't wanna go on and on and this is not a flame topic....but there's even misconceptions when it comes to Stack and Tilt.....The misunderstanding for me is how much of a movement do you have to do.....for instance:

They say weight forward, 55/45 okay.....this one maybe not so much, but where should the weight be, should it feel like its on you heels, on your toes.....and so on....

Shoulder Down: This could be misconcepted by anyone.....How steep???? How far?????? anyhow....

It's kinda like the 5 keys.....if you dont get the first one right then you dont need to move on....for example if the shoulder is moving too far down....then you can't get to slide hips or weight forward....

I think peoples entry into golf gets harder even if it may sound simpler.....but these moves that they incorporate need to be addressed in a Faults and Fixes book......

Anyway, does anyone agree????

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by outlaw1984

Hey everyone,

I've played golf for 2 summers now....probably more last summer than this....but anyhow.....Read Stack and Tilt book, watched the dvd's, read all the various post on here.....anyway i don't wanna go on and on and this is not a flame topic....but there's even misconceptions when it comes to Stack and Tilt.....The misunderstanding for me is how much of a movement do you have to do....

Read all you want. Study all you want. There's no substitute for lessons with an instructor who knows the pattern like the back of his hand.

Originally Posted by outlaw1984

They say weight forward, 55/45 okay.....this one maybe not so much, but where should the weight be, should it feel like its on you heels, on your toes.....and so on....

The book addresses this early on. I'm paraphrasing but they say somewhere between the heels and balls of the feet, with it slightly closer to the balls of the feet. I haven't read the book in months though, so maybe they explain it more clearly there.

Then again, how this should "feel" is different for everyone -- hence why lessons are so key.

Originally Posted by outlaw1984

Shoulder Down: This could be misconcepted by anyone.....How steep???? How far?????? anyhow....

Originally Posted by outlaw1984

It's kinda like the 5 keys.....if you dont get the first one right then you dont need to move on....for example if the shoulder is moving too far down....then you can't get to slide hips or weight forward....

I think peoples entry into golf gets harder even if it may sound simpler.....but these moves that they incorporate need to be addressed in a Faults and Fixes book......

Anyway, does anyone agree????

I've said this many times in other threads. Self-teaching sucks when you finally plateau. The answers are out there. You need to get some lessons with a S&T; guy or someone who knows that pattern well -- like a MORAD or 5SK guy. They'll tell you exactly what's wrong with your swing. They'll tell you what you should be working on right now . That's where the simplicity comes in.

You're reading the book, you're watching videos, you're reading threads... You are being bombarded by so many ideas that you have no clue what direction to go in. It's good to enrich the mind, and I commend you on that, but if you don't have an expert there to keep you focused on what matters specifically to you right at this moment, you will be overwhelmed by information.

[ChrisGSZ]

I hate to throw a spanner in the works after so many posts, but a lot of this is probably irrelevant. Humans don't learn effectively when they try to perform any fixed sequence of movements - stack & tilt or any other. Learning through detailed movements runs counter to all our skill-learning mechanisms. It stops us learning - however mechanically pure it might be. We have decades of evidence (from other sports....) showing that improvement in a skill is most rapid when we don't think about technique. This has been proven in basketball, darts, high/long jumps, rifle shooting soccer, tennis and weight lifting. For some reason, it's passed golf by. Essentially, humans are very good at learning 'whole' skills - not bits of skills which need to be combined.

The point is, the fastest way to improve a swing skill is to break it down into just a few mechanical essentials (there are just 4 in a golf swing) and find simple ways of polishing those. The intricacies of stack & tilt and all the other theories are great for discussion and debate, but in terms of actually improving a golf swing, they're not much use. In fact, they're counter-productive as they stifle the very mechanisms we possess that enable us to learn skills! To learn and improve a skill it makes sense to harness our most powerful weapon - not stifle it.

The way forward in golf coaching is probably down a different route - one based on mechanical effectiveness (of course), but 'translated' into simple, thoughts and images that stop us thinking about technique.

Happy to expand scientifically on any of this....

[SloverUT]

Originally Posted by ChrisGSZ

I hate to throw a spanner in the works after so many posts, but a lot of this is probably irrelevant. Humans don't learn effectively when they try to perform any fixed sequence of movements - stack & tilt or any other. Learning through detailed movements runs counter to all our skill-learning mechanisms. It stops us learning - however mechanically pure it might be. We have decades of evidence (from other sports....) showing that improvement in a skill is most rapid when we don't think about technique. This has been proven in basketball, darts, high/long jumps, rifle shooting soccer, tennis and weight lifting. For some reason, it's passed golf by. Essentially, humans are very good at learning 'whole' skills - not bits of skills which need to be combined.

The point is, the fastest way to improve a swing skill is to break it down into just a few mechanical essentials (there are just 4 in a golf swing) and find simple ways of polishing those. The intricacies of stack & tilt and all the other theories are great for discussion and debate, but in terms of actually improving a golf swing, they're not much use. In fact, they're counter-productive as they stifle the very mechanisms we possess that enable us to learn skills! To learn and improve a skill it makes sense to harness our most powerful weapon - not stifle it.

The way forward in golf coaching is probably down a different route - one based on mechanical effectiveness (of course), but 'translated' into simple, thoughts and images that stop us thinking about technique.

Happy to expand scientifically on any of this....

I am not sure I'd necessarily agree with you on this.  A lot of pitchers, including myself, learned how to properly pitch via sequencing.  While there are varying ways that pitchers wind-up, just like there are many different swings in golf, there are certain key things that need to happen in order to be accurate and powerful.  There are a few freak athletic pitchers who have weird wind-ups but for the most part they are similar in a lot of ways.  I know honing in my wind-up didn't come naturally, just like honing in my golf swing.

High jumping is technique

Ice skating is technique

Pole Vaulting is technique.

That is just 3 random Olympic style events where the athletes must learn specific techniques in order to boost their performance.  I doubt any of it is just pure natural ability.  Most of it is technique that has been turned into muscle memory during training so that they don't have to think about it during their actual performance.

[ChrisGSZ]

Good points - I think we're actually agreeing - yes, technical aspects of a skill have to be achieved in all these sports. My point is that they can be achieved in a simpler, more effective way. In many sports, coaches use simple images and analogies to achieve them - e.g. front crawl swimmers are told to 'push water behind you' - instead of 'high arm, roll 60 degrees, little middle finger finger entry, hips high, don't cross the center line, etc etc.... . 'Push the water behind you' has as better effect, because it doesn't overload the swimmers brain and allows natural innate systems to do their work. Its As you say, it's not natural ability - its repetition and hours of work. Athletes in many sports benefit from this simple approach to practice/training, but somehow it's passed golf by....

[cipher]

Originally Posted by ChrisGSZ

I hate to throw a spanner in the works after so many posts, but a lot of this is probably irrelevant. Humans don't learn effectively when they try to perform any fixed sequence of movements - stack & tilt or any other. Learning through detailed movements runs counter to all our skill-learning mechanisms. It stops us learning - however mechanically pure it might be. We have decades of evidence (from other sports....) showing that improvement in a skill is most rapid when we don't think about technique. This has been proven in basketball, darts, high/long jumps, rifle shooting soccer, tennis and weight lifting. For some reason, it's passed golf by. Essentially, humans are very good at learning 'whole' skills - not bits of skills which need to be combined.

The point is, the fastest way to improve a swing skill is to break it down into just a few mechanical essentials (there are just 4 in a golf swing) and find simple ways of polishing those. The intricacies of stack & tilt and all the other theories are great for discussion and debate, but in terms of actually improving a golf swing, they're not much use. In fact, they're counter-productive as they stifle the very mechanisms we possess that enable us to learn skills! To learn and improve a skill it makes sense to harness our most powerful weapon - not stifle it.

The way forward in golf coaching is probably down a different route - one based on mechanical effectiveness (of course), but 'translated' into simple, thoughts and images that stop us thinking about technique.

Happy to expand scientifically on any of this....

You are starting with a conclusion and then offering scientific explanation later.  I know it is a bait tactic so I guess I will bite, and maybe I should not....sorry.  I don't see how you can generalize the way everyone learns best.  For instance, I fought the shanks for thee years I studied basic tips and read books for three of them.  It helped some but I still had them from time to time and I still hit high weak ballooning over the top iron shots.   I even spent time with a PGA pro who was supposed to be one of the best in the area.  He gave me simple thoughts to think about without really looking for any specific mechanic/setup flaws.  I could not really understand this type of teaching.  It was not really until I took some "highly technical" video(evolvr) lessons that I was able to understand the flaws in my technique.  I learned visually much better this way as well.  I was able to compare what I was doing to what I should be doing.  Not a single shank in thousands of balls hit, and the best penetrating most consistent iron shots I have ever hit.   If you don't know what is broken, how can you fix it?   How are "simple thoughts and images" the cure all?  How can this be the way for everyone? Just tell me when your book is coming out or whatever you are selling...just kidding. ;)  If you want maybe you should reference your studies in your 1000 swings thread as there is no sense in combining that thread into this one.

[ChrisGSZ]

CIPHER - thanks for these comments - they are very perceptive... . As you say, there is no simple 'cure-all' - everyone is different... . It's just that we have so much evidence (more than a century) that humans and all animals learn best when they focus 'outside the body' - externally - compared to focusing internally on technique - it's a puzzle why we do this so much in golf....

I can certainly reference the research - go to http://thegolfswingzone.com , where there's a brief scientific summary and some downloadable sections. You can also 'Look Inside' the book on Amazon.

On this forum, I'm just hoping to contribute some sensible science to debates where science can make a difference.

[cipher]

Since you are actually selling a book, maybe you should keep the pitch on the thousand swings thread, as it is a bit off topic here.  No offense, hope you do well with it.

[slodsm]

Well, I've read all 88 pages, bought the book, and will probably buy the DVD's. I've taken lessons, know a traditional swing by heart but I brain dump it regularly and start hitting fat shots, swinging off my back foot, etc. Went from a 180yd par 3 GIR yesterday as well as several other GIR's and my personal best shot to the green that stuck (distance wise) to the green and only 2 fat shots in a round to no GIR today and stopped keeping score at 5 after 2 triples and 3 doubles all directly related to poor ball striking. I'm athletic so with practice I should be able to absorb this I hope. A lot less movement and taking practice swings with it in the house I find it much easier to keep my head where it needs to be. My miss is always a fade to a full blown slice and all of the OOB and hazards that I get into are on the right. It's be nice to no longer stress that shot anymore.

Fingers crossed, I'll hit about 200 range balls tomorrow at 50% or so trying to get my timing down.