The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[cipher]

Originally Posted by SloverUT

Don't feel bad cipher.  I am struggling with my left knee kicking in as well.  I can't seem to get used to it moving forward toward the ball instead of back towards my right knee.  And when I do manage to move my knee forward I hit the ground what feels like 2 feet behind the ball, lol.

Thanks man! ;)

Originally Posted by sk golf

Instead of feeling like your holding off feel like your adding pressure.  Feel like you are applying more and more pressure into you left foot (I am assuming you are RH) from A4 to A6.  In your rehearsals feel like your hips are slanted left, left should down, and from there the arms drop faster.  Sounds like you have been working on this for awhile, so I would add in the feeling from A4 to A6 that your very narrow.  I'll post a picture below of what I mean.

Finally, this is pretty tough, so don't get too discouraged and stick with it.

I am actually just on my fourth evolvr lesson, so it is all coming kind of fast.  I started them just about a month ago, but have been practicing a lot.  That picture is great, I took a snapshot with my phone to have the reference when practicing.  I will work on the "pressure" feeling as you and Mike are talking about.  Thanks for the help!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by wadesworld

With a proper setup, the low point of the swing is the sternum notch.  Anatomically, it has to be.

No it doesn't. The right arm isn't straight at impact. The left shoulder is moving up. The shaft is not inline with the left arm. The wrists haven't uncocked fully. And so on. Many pieces contribute to a low point that's a good bit farther forward (under the lead armpit, roughly) in a proper golf swing.

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Is it the tilt of the stack and tilt method which is causing the low point of the swing to be the left pec or under the left arm as Mario is describing? If so, that's an intentional manipulation of the shoulder plane forcing the low point to be somewhere other than where anatomy dictates. Doesn't mean it's wrong if that's what the method calls for, but it didn't change anatomy.

What am I missing?

You're missing that impact is not setup. That "anatomically" you're wrong about where low point is in a good golf swing.

Long irons work best when they're hit with a very shallow negative AoA. One of the easiest ways to shallow the AoA is to move the ball closer to the low point - or farther forward. With a wedge, the center of our stance is fine because we can deliver a larger negative AoA.

This is true of EVERY good swing pattern, not just S&T.;

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Is it the tilt of the stack and tilt method which is causing the low point of the swing to be the left pec or under the left arm as Mario is describing? If so, that's an intentional manipulation of the shoulder plane forcing the low point to be somewhere other than where anatomy dictates.  Doesn't mean it's wrong if that's what the method calls for, but it didn't change anatomy.

What am I missing?

The "tilt" is just pointing out the left tilt, lateral flexion (oblique crunch) that EVERY good players has.  Left shoulder is higher than the right at address but at the top of the back swing left shoulder is lower.  The left tilt is towards the ball NOT towards the target.

Originally Posted by cipher

Mike, The only way that I am getting that feeling of the hips and shoulders down, that you and James have been talking to me about, is to try and hold off the move of my left knee kicking in on my back swing.  I noticed if my left knee kicks in too much I immediately want to straighten it, raising my hips and shoulders.  If I try to hold it off I am able to keep the set up flex and increase it a bit at the start of the downswing, giving me the sense you guys are talking about. Is this OK to have a more stationary left leg and knee in the back swing with the S&T; method?

Yes like Stephan said, focus more on the pressure rather than the flex of your left knee.  Like you're squashing a bug under your left foot.

Originally Posted by cipher

If I try to hold it off I am able to keep the set up flex and increase it a bit at the start of the downswing, giving me the sense you guys are talking about. Is this OK to have a more stationary left leg and knee in the back swing with the S&T; method?

By stationary do you mean not moving back at all?  Having the left knee be stationary is not something I would recommend per a centered pivot.  Might be the feel for some people but in reality the left knee will move back a little.  Keeps the hips turning and the head from going down and forward.

[outlaw1984]

mvmac:

should i be feeling those arms connected in the 2 pressure points under the armpits....i watched you video on you tube....i was just wondering is this what i should be feeling???

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by outlaw1984

mvmac:

should i be feeling those arms connected in the 2 pressure points under the armpits....i watched you video on you tube....i was just wondering is this what i should be feeling???

Good question, I'm literally working on a Swing Thoughts post about this very drill.  I think this drill gives you a good feeling of where the hands should be at the top of the backswing and making sure you maintain the radius of the swing (left arm lever).  With this particular video I'm too exaggerated with the straightness of my right leg and the right arm is too connected to my side.  The right arm is connected at the arm pit but there is space, 3-5 inches, with the right elbow and rib cage.  MORAD information breaks down pressure points #4 & 5 into 3 more upper arm sub pressure points, at the armpit (pp#1), mid-bicep (pp#2), and elbow (pp#3).  So at the top of the backswing you on have pressure point #1.  Fred Couples would have zero and Jason Dufner might have 1.5.

I can't for sure if this is what you should be feeling because I'm not sure whether it's your priority.  But it's a good drill and I think creates some good feels/images.  I do a better job of demonstrating in the recent video I just shot

http://thesandtrap.com/t/54572/right-elbow-spacing-at-a4

[cipher]

Originally Posted by mvmac

By stationary do you mean not moving back at all?  Having the left knee be stationary is not something I would recommend per a centered pivot.  Might be the feel for some people but in reality the left knee will move back a little.  Keeps the hips turning and the head from going down and forward.

Exactly, I am talking about the feeling more than the reality.  My left leg was kicking in much more than this before, now with the "stationary" feeling, it is moving more like the photos you have above.   I will be uploading a video to my James later this week, so I will see what he says about the change as well.

[sk golf]

Originally Posted by cipher

Exactly, I am talking about the feeling more than the reality.  My left leg was kicking in much more than this before, now with the "stationary" feeling, it is moving more like the photos you have above.   I will be uploading a video to my James later this week, so I will see what he says about the change as well.

This might be a good drill for you to incorporate that feel.

[sk golf]

Just to be clear I wanted to add a dtl picture also

[cipher]

Originally Posted by sk golf

Just to be clear I wanted to add a dtl picture also

Thanks again.  This all helps a lot.  Before, my left leg was coming in quite a bit more than this.   I also realized that I still need to turn my left foot out a bit more to get this effect.

[Hogan1949]

I started taking using the S&T pattern about one month ago and am having good progress with my shorter irons (7I-LW) but I'm alternating between hitting big pushes (or push fades) and snap hooks with the Driver. I know it's got to be a face issue but I can't seem to fix it. any ideas?

Thanks

[mchepp]

A video would surely help to diagnose the issue. A push fade (which I find to be fairly common for S&T) for me was because I never got forward enough with the pelvis and I would swipe at the ball and hit very weak pushes. Thing is without a video tough for anyone to be sure.

[Hogan1949]

Originally Posted by mchepp

A video would surely help to diagnose the issue. A push fade (which I find to be fairly common for S&T) for me was because I never got forward enough with the pelvis and I would swipe at the ball and hit very weak pushes.

Thing is without a video tough for anyone to be sure.

Mike.......is there a danger in too much lateral slide with the hips? When I sometimetimes more more left (where the wieght is on the outside of my front foot), it makes rotating the upper body through the shot difficult.

[mchepp]

Originally Posted by Hogan1949

Mike.......is there a danger in too much lateral slide with the hips? When I sometimetimes more more left (where the wieght is on the outside of my front foot), it makes rotating the upper body through the shot difficult.

Simple answer is yes. Especially if it causes you to move your head forward or lose your balance. In doing S&T I would reverse hip slide where the hips would start going forward and then not be able to go anymore forward and I would hit overdraws. This was Mikecorrection for the push fade problem which I hated.

The hips sliding forward needs to be done in concert with some rotation.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Hogan1949

I started taking using the S&T pattern about one month ago and am having good progress with my shorter irons (7I-LW) but I'm alternating between hitting big pushes (or push fades) and snap hooks with the Driver. I know it's got to be a face issue but I can't seem to fix it. any ideas?

Thanks

Hi -

Check the grip - slightly strong

Face at address slightly open to target line while body is square to target but both feet flared open

Ball position - too far back and face will be too open at impact

Think path - slightly closed relative to the open face - in fact, I imagine my path when looking down at address and towards impact - it seems to help

Arms are coming in late (keeping the path too open) -  I believe Mike and Erik have mentioned this in posts about the arms. Keep arms close to body but get them going

[Mr. Desmond]

Still having issues w/ SnT - no doubt because of too many swing thoughts.

But progress is being made ... slowly when you have no SnT instructor in the area. Over the last 15 yrs, have attempted Haney, Hardy, and then TGM, the last with some progress. But went to SnT to eliminate the weight shift to the back, and that instructor telling me not to straighten the right leg.  Amazingly, among area instructors with great reputation - I found limited knowledge when questions were asked, and less attention to basics - like the 5 Keys. One of my issues was being a natural lefty and swinging as a righty - will post later about that.

Latest issue w the swing is fat hits and deeper divots.

Resolution is getting the arms down faster with the handle in front on the clubhead, while keeping the back to the ball for a slight in to out path and more speed.

I also found that I was digging and getting toe hits because the right hand lever was going down and down - instead of down and out at the ball, resulting in contact towards the toe and digging. When I allowed the wrists to go out at the ball, contact was center and more shallow - center contact,  less divot and sand shots were more effortless. It was a different feel - I want the left wrist flat and the right wrist to retain an angle. It was ... different.

I need to get over my potential embarrassment and post my swing to make better progress - but I don't know if anyone would have picked up on the above.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

But progress is being made ... slowly when you have no SnT instructor in the area.

I need to get over my potential embarrassment and post my swing to make better progress - but I don't know if anyone would have picked up on the above.

To the first paragraph, it may be high time for you to try evolvr.com.

To the second, yes, post your video in a My Swing thread.

[Bullitt5339]

Background:  I was a player who could shoot an 84 one day and a 104 the next.  I just had no consistency in my swing.  I have an instructor who works with me when I need him, and he seems to make some changed that just take a long time to engrain into my muscle memory.

So I decided to buy Stack and Tilt to work on here at the house.  At first it was alien, and I struggled to hit anything well, my average rounds shot up to a 106 stroke average.  I was about to stop, but decided to stick with it and try to improve.  Going to the range 3 or 4 times a week and playing 2 rounds per week during the winter.

After about 2 weeks, I noticed my irons were starting to come around.  I was still fading the ball, but it was very predictable.  The shoulder turn prescribed made a huge difference out on the course.  I could play it.  My driver and fairway woods went to complete crap and I couldn't hit the at all.

Went to my instructor and we identified that my lower body had too much movement in it on the backswing, including swaying.  I really thought I was trying to keep my hips centered on the backswing.  He gave me a new "feel" wit the driver which is completely alien to me right now, but I've stuck with it and after 2 weeks of work on the driver, it's actually coming around.

By feeling like I'm bracing my hips from turning and thinking of "Back to Target/Chest to Target", I have made huge strides in my driver swing.  Getting the weight to shift that far forward has been a challenge to me, but when I get it right, it's beautiful.

I'm going to stick with it and keep practicing until there's grass on the ground and see what I can shoot this year.  My goal is to shoot mid-80's on most of my local courses.

[logman]

Good luck with it. I really need to find out more about S and T. Keep  updating