The Stack and Tilt Golf Swing

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Bullitt5339

Went to my instructor and we identified that my lower body had too much movement in it on the backswing, including swaying.  I really thought I was trying to keep my hips centered on the backswing.  He gave me a new "feel" wit the driver which is completely alien to me right now, but I've stuck with it and after 2 weeks of work on the driver, it's actually coming around.

By feeling like I'm bracing my hips from turning and thinking of "Back to Target/Chest to Target", I have made huge strides in my driver swing.  Getting the weight to shift that far forward has been a challenge to me, but when I get it right, it's beautiful.

Just one quick question: who's your instructor? "Bracing your hips from turning" would be an odd sensation for an S&T instructor to give (though if they're turning too quickly, or prematurely, one that could still be valid of course).

[Bullitt5339]

Originally Posted by iacas

Just one quick question: who's your instructor? "Bracing your hips from turning" would be an odd sensation for an S&T instructor to give (though if they're turning too quickly, or prematurely, one that could still be valid of course).

That is not something I was taught, it was simply the feeling I got after he put me in the correct position and I began to hit the ball a lot straighter.  I tend to rotate my hips along with my shoulders on the back swing, turning almost horizontally from the knees up, if that makes sense.  Then I would rotate my hips very quickly when I started the downswing, which had me cutting across the ball horribly, and led to extreme shots off the toe, especially with the driver. I would also hit down into the ball with the driver my extreme miss was off the toe and crown (at the same time, if you can believe that) taking a divot on the inside of the tee, leaving the tee in place.  It was a horrible period in my golf life, I almost quit playing because of it.  I was actually told that with as close as I was standing to the ball (a byproduct of trying to stop the toe shots) and as fast as my hips turned, there was no way I could ever achieve an inside/out swing path, which makes sense, since when I actually tried to come from the inside, I would hit the ground behind the ball.

I have been trying to follow the S&T book and DVD, there's no certified instructor in North Carolina, but I wasn't doing very well.  Another S&T guy (who's a lot better than I am and plays to a 6hc) recommended a guy named Anthony C.  (I won't even attempt to spell his last name) who is not a certified S&T instructor, just a PGA Apprentice, but teaches the same fundamentals and helped him out a lot when he first started S&T.;  Upon going to see him, he was indeed teaching me the same fundamentals covered in the S&T materials I own, which truly helped me get into the proper positions and to "feel" what I should on a good shot.

I thought I was doing things right, but since I can't see my own swing, I was incorrectly performing the simple fundamentals.

If there was an authorized S&T Instructor or 5SK instructor within an hour drive of me, I would be taking a lot more lessons, but as far as the fundamentals of S&T for someone who's just learning the swing, it was very helpful to have someone see what I was doing wrong, and put me in the correct position so that I could feel it.  I will be the first to admit that I am just starting to retool and rethink my swing and learn what should be correct after this meltdown, and this entire process may not be the final golf voyage I take, but working on just the fundamentals has seemed to really improve my ball striking when I execute them correctly, and I'm actually starting to learn and feel "why" the ball did what it did and based on that, what I did wrong on that particular swing.

While my handicap is still stagnant after I completely lost my swing (I need to update it, I am a 22 now after my meltdown), I finally feel like there's light at the end of the tunnel of horrible golf and that I'm getting close to emerging into mediocre golf.  Seriously, I went from a 12 to a 24 in the span of one year and have worked it back down to a 22 in the past 2 months with a major swing change in there.  I thought it was a slump, but they don't last a year, so it was obviously time to change the way I looked at the golf swing.

[rowlf]

I must be living in a cocoon and I just knew about Stack and Tilt from an old copy of Golf Digest.

I am not sure if this was from TGM as some say on this forum. I have been learning from a TGM instructor since 2009 and I was never taught Stack and Tilt. Looked like a reverse pivot if you ask me.

[Bob Grissett]

a reverse pivot has your weight on your rear foot. Stack & Tilt is a centered pivot..PERIOD

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by rowlf

I must be living in a cocoon and I just knew about Stack and Tilt from an old copy of Golf Digest.

I am not sure if this was from TGM as some say on this forum. I have been learning from a TGM instructor since 2009 and I was never taught Stack and Tilt. Looked like a reverse pivot if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Bob Grissett

a reverse pivot has your weight on your rear foot. Stack & Tilt is a centered pivot..PERIOD

I always thought that "reverse pivot" meant that your weight went to the FRONT foot on the back swing and then fell back on the downswing?  Obviously, not ideal for any swing pattern.  And, if rowlf's only familiarity with S&T; is with the old Golf Digest article (I'm assuming he means the Aaron Baddeley one) then I think he's right.  The positions he looks like he's in for those photos - which I think are poor exaggerations of what S&T; is supposed to look like - do make it look like he's leaning forward on his front foot at the top of the backswing.  (Going off memory here, cuz it's been a long time since I've seen that article, but I remember thinking that it looked really odd)

Anybody who's familiar with the golf swing knows that for ANY decent swing, with a centered pivot, your weight/pressure goes mostly to your back foot on the backswing, and then to your front foot by impact.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Anybody who's familiar with the golf swing knows that for ANY decent swing, with a centered pivot, your weight/pressure goes mostly to your back foot on the backswing, and then to your front foot by impact.

Now if only Andy and Mike would face the data...

[Bob Grissett]

First thing Full Disclosure: I am an Authorized Stack & Tilt Instructor.

The pictures in Golf Digest of Aaron Baddeley were a DRILL that Aaron was doing to correct him staying in flexion in the backswing (moving upper centers to the right). There were supposed to be three photos: a before, the drill or his feel (which was pictured) and then the after. BUT many times Golf Digest or any other magazine does not print it in the exact way you want. In that picture of Aaron,  if you reread the article just below the picture it says ....some players MAY HAVE TO FEEL as Aaron is demonstrating.

Now as for a reverse pivot...the definition you stated is wrong. You can have a left anchored pivot if your weight started left, stayed left and moved left. That is not a reverse pivot. If your weight started 50/50 and moved 90L & 10R on backswing, then moved 90R & 10L on downswing to finish then that would be a reverse pivot.

Stack & Tilt teaches a centered pivot. In all teaching, to change someone you many times have to go to opposite feels. It just as easily could be someone with a bbig hip slide to the right and a huge reverse spine angle....in this case you may have the player feel like his hips stay left and his upper torso moves to the right. So you could overhear me given a lesson and make assumptions about what I teach which has no basis of fact...as my lesson was about fixing the guy I was with and HIS issues.

[rowlf]

Yes, it was from the Aaron Baddeley Golf Digest article.

Oh dear, I really don't want to step on anyone's toes but I am struggling to understand the mechanics so please pardon me if this sounded ignorant.

I have to put my hands up and say that I understand very little, if at all about Stack and Tilt but I still couldn't reconcile that it isn't a reverse pivot. If the head stays in the same position for the backswing, how could the spine be straight when the upper body is rotated?

This was a copy of the picture and an excerpt from the article from 2007.

Body stays centered

The spine should be vertical at the top , which makes the player feel tipped over the front leg. This tilting toward the target happens continuously during the backswing. At the top, the weight on the front foot has increased slightly .

The head stays in place, so the ball remains centered in the player's vision. If the head shifts, it has the same effect as the ball moving and inhibits solid contact.

Read More http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2007-06/stackandtilt1_gd0706#ixzz2Sw6BmVvx

[Golfingdad]

Now as for a reverse pivot...the definition you stated is wrong. You can have a left anchored pivot if your weight started left, stayed left and moved left. That is not a reverse pivot. If your weight started 50/50 and moved 90L & 10R on backswing, then moved 90R & 10L on downswing to finish then that would be a reverse pivot.

Okie dokie. If you say so, I'll take your word for it. (I am not an instructor) [quote name="rowlf" url="/t/30537/the-stack-and-tilt-golf-swing/1470#post_842126"]Yes, it was from the Aaron Baddeley Golf Digest article. Oh dear, I really don't want to step on anyone's toes but I am struggling to understand the mechanics so please pardon me if this sounded ignorant. I have to put my hands up and say that I understand very little, if at all about Stack and Tilt but I still couldn't reconcile that it isn't a reverse pivot. If the head stays in the same position for the backswing, how could the spine be straight when the upper body is rotated?  This was a copy of the picture and an excerpt from the article from 2007.

Body stays centered

The spine should be vertical at the top , which makes the player feel tipped over the front leg. This tilting toward the target happens continuously during the backswing. At the top, the weight on the front foot has increased slightly .

The head stays in place, so the ball remains centered in the player's vision. If the head shifts, it has the same effect as the ball moving and inhibits solid contact. Read More [COLOR=003399][URL=http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2007-06/stackandtilt1_gd0706#ixzz2Sw6BmVvx]http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2007-06/stackandtilt1_gd0706#ixzz2Sw6BmVvx[/URL][/COLOR]

[/quote]If I were you, I'd just skip the S&T and search the site for 5SK stuff. All the good from S&T and none of the bad. ;)

[Etzwane]

Originally Posted by rowlf

Body stays centered

The spine should be vertical at the top, which makes the player feel tipped over the front leg. This tilting toward the target happens continuously during the backswing. At the top, the weight on the front foot has increased slightly.

The head stays in place, so the ball remains centered in the player's vision. If the head shifts, it has the same effect as the ball moving and inhibits solid contact.

Read More http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2007-06/stackandtilt1_gd0706#ixzz2Sw6BmVvx

I think the important part is the word "tilting" and not "tilted". If you assume you usual address and rotate only the hips, the head goes back and in. In order to keep the head where it is at adress you have to compensate the effect of the rotation by straitening the back and leaning to your left. If this is overdone, yes one ends up tilted toward the target (and some may feel like they're doing it just to keep the head centered). Everyone with a steady head in their swing is doing it, not just Stack and Tilt'ers.

[Bob Grissett]

It's a 3 dimensional motion. Yu left tilt, extend (extension of the thorax & or Pelvis & urn in a circle... CONTROVERSEY>??? ONLYFROM PEOPLE WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE PATTERN.

But my advise to anyone is to seek out an S&T Authrized instructor or do online lessons so that you know what pieces you have to work on. The mistake here is people trying to fix themselves....which may lead to working on pieces you do not need work on or working on the wrong things first.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Bob Grissett

Now as for a reverse pivot...the definition you stated is wrong. You can have a left anchored pivot if your weight started left, stayed left and moved left. That is not a reverse pivot. If your weight started 50/50 and moved 90L & 10R on backswing, then moved 90R & 10L on downswing to finish then that would be a reverse pivot.

S&T; is not a reverse pivot, on that I will agree with Bob.

However, the weight or pressure or force does not really "stay left" as he believes, despite "being there" for the filming of the DVDs which are full of silly "data," and which have pictures like this and this in them.

In an "S&T;" golf swing, WEIGHT will remain roughly within 5% of 50/50 in most swings (Troy Matteson might get to 60L/40R), the pressure or force (the sum of the pressures under the "areas" beneath each foot) will shift to 60-65 to even 70% RIGHT (or trail side, to include lefties).

So whether you're talking about weight (which remains relatively centered, then goes forward during the downswing) or pressure/force (which shifts towards the trail side during the backswing, then forward during the downswing) S&T; is not a reverse pivot.

Just ignore the "data" on the DVDs since it presents the case, in some cases, that S&T; can be a reverse pivot (i.e. weight going backwards during the downswing). It's not - it's just bad data.

Originally Posted by Bob Grissett

It's a 3 dimensional motion. Yu left tilt, extend (extension of the thorax & or Pelvis & urn in a circle... CONTROVERSEY>??? ONLYFROM PEOPLE WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE PATTERN.

Bob, there's plenty of controversy from people who understand the pattern pretty damn well, and you know it .

And the "tilt, turn, extend" thing is overplayed. Mike and Andy, contrary to their claims, were not the first people to say this (I know of people who learned this information in the 1990s), nor did they get it as right as they could have. You don't "stand up" in your backswing, and you don't "left tilt" 35° with your spine.

And all golf swings are "three dimensional patterns," so let's spare yourself the silliness of saying that as if S&T; is the only "three dimensional pattern."

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I always thought that "reverse pivot" meant that your weight went to the FRONT foot on the back swing and then fell back on the downswing?  Obviously, not ideal for any swing pattern.  And, if rowlf's only familiarity with S&T is with the old Golf Digest article (I'm assuming he means the Aaron Baddeley one) then I think he's right.  The positions he looks like he's in for those photos - which I think are poor exaggerations of what S&T is supposed to look like - do make it look like he's leaning forward on his front foot at the top of the backswing.  (Going off memory here, cuz it's been a long time since I've seen that article, but I remember thinking that it looked really odd)

Originally Posted by Bob Grissett

Now as for a reverse pivot...the definition you stated is wrong. You can have a left anchored pivot if your weight started left, stayed left and moved left. That is not a reverse pivot. If your weight started 50/50 and moved 90L & 10R on backswing, then moved 90R & 10L on downswing to finish then that would be a reverse pivot.

Bob, how can my definition of a reverse pivot be wrong, and then yours be right?  They are the exact same thing.  Weight goes left on backswing, right on downswing. ...

Originally Posted by iacas

S&T is not a reverse pivot, on that I will agree with Bob.

However, the weight or pressure or force does not really "stay left" as he believes, despite "being there" for the filming of the DVDs which are full of silly "data," and which have pictures like this and this in them.

And I believe that I am also right in saying that its understandable that rowlf could get that impression based on the GD article, and Erik's photos here further back that.  Even though the "data" is dead wrong, people buying and watching the DVD's wouldn't know that and it clearly says right there in both of those illustrations that the golfers have more weight on the front foot at the top of the backswing than they do at impact or at the finish.

Of course, it is comical that a guy with his entire body in a straight line save for the lower half of one leg resting on its toe could somehow have 50% of his weight on that toe, but again ... in speaking to the perception, not the reality, I think I'm right and rowlfs confusion is understandable..

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Of course, it is comical that a guy with his entire body in a straight line save for the lower half of one leg resting on its toe could somehow have 50% of his weight on that toe, but again ... in speaking to the perception, not the reality, I think I'm right and rowlfs confusion is understandable..

I agree that his confusion is understandable. I've never been a fan of the original Golf Digest article - namely because (as I said back then) if you have to make the "conventional" swing look THAT bad, then I get real suspicious that you're trying to sell me some snake oil or something.

S&T is not a reverse pivot. Weight goes back or stays relatively centered during the backswing, then forward in the downswing. Pressure/force goes BACK during the backswing, then forward during the downswing.

[minitour]

Best thing I ever did (in my desperate search to play to my former ability again) was "give it a shot" and take a lesson from James.  I told him after the lesson that I was one of the people giving it nothing but crap.  I used to say how bad it is for your back, reverse pivot, fad, etc.

When I actually took some quality instruction from someone who knows what he's doing, my eyes were opened immediately.  It helps that he's a great teacher, because I'm pretty sure he could convey information on any "method" (for lack of a better word) and be successful, but it also helps that the pattern isn't going to cause a reverse pivot, blow out your back, give you fits hitting a driver, etc...if you do it properly.

Some day, if my little mini-me (due July 24th) wants to learn the game, I'll get him or her started, but then we'll get some lessons from a S&T instructor (or 5SK or whatever it's called now).

[nevets88]

"Foley teaches a version of the swing concept called "stack and tilt." In this method, a player keeps his weight centered, instead of shifting towards the right foot during the back swing. In the follow-through, the torso flexes, and the spine tilts. The idea is to keep the player balanced, simplifying the golf swing."

Meet Sean Foley, The Controversial Genius Who's Making Tiger Woods Play The Best Golf Of His Career

http://www.businessinsider.com/sean-foley-fixes-tiger-woods-swing-proves-skeptics-wrong-2013-5

"the torso flexes, and the spine tilts" - I guess that's referring to extension and flexion?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by minitour

Some day, if my little mini-me (due July 24th) wants to learn the game, I'll get him or her started, but then we'll get some lessons from a S&T instructor (or 5SK or whatever it's called now).

5SK is not S&T.; 5SK is any good swing, S&T is one swing.

But yes, James is good, and any of us (James, Dave, Mike, or myself) can teach you S&T, but prefer not to confine ourselves or our students to that box. Haven't for years.

[scopek]

Originally Posted by iacas

And the "tilt, turn, extend" thing is overplayed. Mike and Andy, contrary to their claims, were not the first people to say this (I know of people who learned this information in the 1990s), nor did they get it as right as they could have. You don't "stand up" in your backswing, and you don't "left tilt" 35° with your spine.

And all golf swings are "three dimensional patterns," so let's spare yourself the silliness of saying that as if S&T is the only "three dimensional pattern."

This reminds me of my father-in-law who is in his early 60's and still a scratch golfer. "Stack and Tilt?....I've been doing that since the 80's, these guys just put a on name on something we've been doing all the time."