Christians

[DBeane]

Since we're on the subject...here is one of my favorite quotes about religion:

"Look anywhere you like, to slavery, to the subjugation of women as chattel, to the burning and flogging of homosexuals, to ethnic cleansing, to anti-Semitism, for all of this look no further than a famous book that is on every pulpit in this city, and in every synagogue and every mosque. And then you'll see whether you can square this circle: that the force that is the main source of hatred is also the main caller for censorship."
- Ibid.

People have been arguing about this crap for centuries. Whoever invented it, I suppose knew what they were doing, while religion causes a lot of problems, it also prevents a lot of people from acting like the apes they are. People seem to be pack animals, religion gives them a "group" to go to with a common thread, that reduces stress, provides a network for them, support system, etc...
I hope I'm wrong. It would be nice if there really was a sugar candy mountain to go, but the reality I live in says the glue factory is right around the corner so watch your own ass, because gods certainly not.

[Phil McGleno]

Erik sent me this video a few years ago, and I think it's appropriate for this thread:

[Shanks A Million]

I think the term you are looking for is "moot", not "mute.

And what's worse, this attitude I fear drives people away from any sort of belief in something larger than themselves. Life is not easy, and not clear, and the ignorant tend to favor an easy route, one of total conformation, or one of total rejection. Instead of thinking for themselves, on some middle ground, they cast all their cards into one hand. They argue either about total salvation by Jesus, or total absence of god. Either side of this black and white argument is a very sad place. Look to people like myself, iacas, or even the people who made that video Harmon posted. We all probably disagree about the specifics, but we know that it doesn't matter, because we're all mere mortals with no answers to the great questions, so arguing about it, is... moot.

[nike_golf]

I think the term you are looking for is "moot", not "mute.

You want me to fit a certain mold so badly, don't you? You're both putting words into my mouth and thoughts into my head. That's something I personally don't appreciate.

So be it. You can take solice in "knowing" what you know of the earth, the universe, rocks, light years, etc etc. You can take solice in trusting science. That's all great and dandy. I know I'm just a bumbling, believing in fairy tale type stuff, moron to you. I know your kind as well. This is what I was talking about when I say atheists get so worked up about this. You assume that I teach what I believe to people. You assume that I think anyone who doesn't believe what I believe, that they are satanist. You assume I get together w/ my church members to talk about the evil non believers such as yourself. LOL, to seriously think you really believe that is laughable to me. Where did you read anything remotely close to that in what I've posted? I've posted several times I don't care what you believe. It has no affect on me in how I would treat you as a person. Do those words go right through you and not mean anything? Or do you not want to believe a Christian can think that way? Well, I'm sorry for not fitting your mold in that regard. MOST Christians I know are very similar to me. We worship in private and go about our daily lives treating others how we would like to be treated, no matter what. I know there are many things that aren't answered by science. But, like I've said earlier, I don't get all caught up in that. I know your kind wants to get hung up on all of that, and you can feel free, but it just doesn't mean much to me. I'll let guys like you worry about that stuff. I think in a way you want me to lash out and to get angry for you not believing in what I do. But, it's just not like that. Sorry.

[nike_golf]

And what's worse, this attitude I fear drives people away from any sort of belief in something larger than themselves. Life is not easy, and not clear, and the ignorant tend to favor an easy route, one of total conformation, or one of total rejection. Instead of thinking for themselves, on some middle ground, they cast all their cards into one hand. They argue either about total salvation by Jesus, or total absence of god. Either side of this black and white argument is a very sad place. Look to people like myself, iacas, or even the people who made that video Harmon posted. We all probably disagree about the specifics, but we know that it doesn't matter, because we're all mere mortals with no answers to the great questions, so arguing about it, is... moot.

I agree w/ some of this. We may disagree about specifics, but what do atheists actually believe?

It's such a convenient spot to be sitting in. You don't believe in anything that can't be "proven". Faith is a foreign word to you. You call the ones who do have faith in something they can't see or touch as weak and blind. That kind of attitude gets no one anywhere.

[Shorty]

We may disagree about specifics, but what do atheists actually believe?

What do you mean by this? Atheists are comfortable believing that if something can not be demonstrated and is based on mythology or metaphor it would be foolish to believe it. Atheists accept the fact that when we die we are dead.

In the absence of proof and logic, why believe something? You have been told by others about Paradise and resurrection, but despite anything even remotely resembling evidence, you choose to accept this. I would ask you why? Again - point me to one single thing - fact- object -that would support a belief in everlasting life and the resurrection of Jesus Chriust and I'll accept it. If I were to say that I believed that there was a teapot revolving in space exactly 500 miles above my head because someone told me it was true, you'd question my sanity. You also keep saying you don't care what others think, and that "atheists" are getting riled up. Again, why? Please supply ONE SIGLE piece of information that would make a person believe that your "beliefs" are feasible. As for the accusation about words being put in your mouth, perhaps you should reread your own posts. Now - one final thing. Will a dog go to heaven if it dies? If not, why not?

[nike_golf]

What do you mean by this? Atheists are comfortable believing that if something can not be demonstrated and is based on mythology or metaphor it would be foolish to believe it. Atheists accept the fact that when we die we are dead.

Why does everything require proof? There are many things that are unexplained. I know folks like you demand proof and an explanation for everything. Well, some things just aren't meant to be explained. Rather, you leave some of those things alone and accept them for what they are. I have faith and believe in how some things came to be and how some things happen, but thats a foreign concept to you. Which is fine. You obviously don't believe, and more power to you.

I could go into personal experiences that I've gone through as evidence of God, but I know you would find some other "logical" explanation, so there is no point. I actually more or less feel sorry for folks like you. I know you don't want my sympathy, believe me I understand that, but I can't help it. To think you go through life thinking there is no grand point to it all. That we came to be from some big bang. That when we die, that's just it. You just cease to be. That's what happens to animals. We're not animals. We were created in the image of God. So, to answer your question, no, I don't believe dogs go to heaven. But, who knows. I could be wrong. And as for your accusation that I should go re-read my posts. Without even needing to do it I know I never said I teach and/or preach about my religion to others, as you said I do. I know I never said anyone who doesn't believe in what I believe, might as well be satanists, as you said I did. I know I never said I sit around at church talking about the non-believers, as you said I did. Like I said, I know you want me to fit some mold that you lump Christians into. But, wise up. I'm a pretty average young man who just happens to be Christian. I was brought up w/ a pretty religious dad who instilled the stories and beliefs of our religion in me at an early age. I didn't like it at the time. I found religion boring and not very important growing up, as a lot of kids did. As I got older and became an adult, I began to realize the importance all of that was on me to help shape me into a decent guy that I am today. I have thanked him for doing that, in regards to making sure I knew about God and the word of Jesus. I'm curious, what do atheists tell their kids about life and death? That's gotta be a pretty depressing conversation. What goes through atheists minds when they're lying on their death bed? That's gotta be a pretty depressing thought. You think I'm loony for believing in something that I can't touch or see. I, in turn, think it's nuts to believe that we all just came to be by some scientific theory. I think it's nuts to believe that this short life that we have is all there is, and nothing more. God bless.

[nike_golf]

I know atheists want all of this proof, proof, and more proof that God exists. Scientific proof, of course.

I did a simple Google search. There are countless examples of scientists who believe that God created everything and that only He could have made and designed things in such the perfect way. There are many examples of species designs that evolution had nothing to do with or couldn't "fix" over time. They are intelligently designed that way.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_proof_that_God_exists

Check that link out. It's a list of folks like you and I who have submitted what they feel about God and proof, or lack of proof of His existance.

[sean_miller]

I've read the comments posted (on the WikiAnswers link). I envision the average person empathizing with thoughts and opinions that mirror their own while casually rejecting those that seem naive and narrowminded.

To reject everything Christianity has to say and offer, because sections of the Bible that are dated and flawed or because some Christians believe the Bible is a literal record of history, is selling the faith and yourself short. It could even be interpreted as both narrowminded and illogical. There are many valid lessons in Aesop's Fables, but does anyone actually believe the fox, goose, wolf, and donkeys had those conversations? Of course not. Would you value the opinion of someone who honestly believed they did? Doubtful.

People with an interest in this subject should learn about the stories and teachings in the Christian Bible as such - stories and teachings, not a literal account of world history. Do yourself a favour and learn about the creation and evolution of these stories. There are historical and political reasons why the gospels in the New Testament can at times seem apologetic, humble, and forgiving and at other times homophobic, extremely mysoginistic (not as much so as the Old Testament, but nonetheless . . .) and generally anti-semetic. It's written the way it is for a reason. For many reasons actually.

One book to check out is The Sins of the Scripture , by John Shelby Sponge.

[Cussin hacker]

Nike-golf you remined me of the religous leaders of the dark and middle ages. Science that confliced with the Cristian belief was meet with harsh and inhumain treatment of those who didn't believe. Scientist at the time were always in fear for their life because of the churches hard line on science that in any way confliced with their beliefs. Wake up, it's the 21st century it's OK to to believe in the truth that science provides. It doesn't prove or diprove the existance of God so you can still be a Christian. It would just make you a bit smarter in the end.

[Phil McGleno]

1) the more intelligent a person is, the less likely they are to be particularly religious (not the same as "spiritual")
2) the more advanced society as a whole becomes, the less likely that society is to be religious

We ain't in the stone ages people. We no longer blame God for scourges of disease. People back then didn't know squat, so what they couldn't explain, they explained with religion. They filled the holes in their lives and understanding with stories about guys on boats or people who turned water into wine and who lived in gardens with talking snakes.

Christianity isn't even truly authentic. In order to spread Christianity, the people pushing it rolled in pagan ideals and stories and all sorts of things from other religions. A good percentage of the Bible isn't "Christian" - it's adopted stories from other religions, including those without gods, those with several gods, etc.

The Dan Brown novels are trash, but the parts that talk about how many Christian things actually have their roots in other religions, paganism, etc. are all fairly accurate. The people who went out to "make a bunch of Christians" had to adapt their stories in order to "sell it" to the "heathens" they were trying to convince.

Now, I'm not saying everyone who believes in God is a moron, but frankly, I've never met a religious person who thinks for himself as much as I'd like. And the studies are what they are - generalizations.

We're not living in the stone age. Kings don't need to use religion to get us to pay more taxes and we're in search of answers to very many un-answered questions about daily life type stuff like the (relative) morons in the dark ages.

[patriot07]

That touches on one of my own biggest "problems" with Christianity or the "god" that Christianity puts forth.

I definitely understand your feelings about this, most other non-Christians seem to feel the same way. But is it really easier to believe that we evolved from single-cell amoeba organisms? I know you didn't say specifically you did, but that's the most popular theory in the science world right now. Alot of people bring up the face that the earth is millions and billions of years old (I'm not saying it isn't, I have no idea), but that "fact" is offerred to us by the same folks that offer us the theory that the thousands of amazing complexities of the human body originated as single-cell sludge. I definitely can't believe that.

[patriot07]

1) the more intelligent a person is, the less likely they are to be particularly religious (not the same as "spiritual")

More educated people also more likely to be Democrats, but that doesn't make them right.

[Phil McGleno]

More educated people also more likely to be Democrats, but that doesn't make them right.

Hey, the study is what the study is. And Republicans tend to be more religious, so hey, you've verified the studies!

Smarter people tend to be less religious.

But is it really easier to believe that we evolved from single-cell amoeba organisms?

Uh, yeah. Do you have any clue how long a billion years is, let alone a few of them? You can't conceive of that much time. Most humans literally can't conceive of a million, let alone a billion, of anything. Do you realize how slow the rate of change could be for us to arrive at the point we're at now? Tell you what - it's slower than the rate of change we see in evolution in the current, modern day. We have examples of evolution occurring at fairly rapid rates all around us, every day. We can see large changes in populations in a few reproductive cycles.

Plus when you consider the possibility that there are a billion or so other systems out there capable of developing life (I won't try to sell you on "infinite"), then why's it so hard to believe that we're that one-in-a-quintillion occurrence?

... but that "fact" is offerred to us by the same folks that offer us the theory that the thousands of amazing complexities of the human body originated as single-cell sludge. I definitely can't believe that.

Can you believe that we're able to take a heart out of someone, put it on ice, and put it in someone else and have it all work? And that this type of surgery is almost "routine?"

Can you believe that we're able to build vaccines? That we've been able to identify pieces of matter so small a trillion of them could hit you at 200 MPH and you wouldn't feel a thing? Can you believe that if we travel the speed of light it will take 100,000 years to before we even get out of the freakin' Milky Way? Or how about this: simulating the conditions of early earth, we've been able to re-create complex amino acids (the building blocks of DNA) in a lab? And it didn't take a billion years, a million, a thousand, or even one year. Or even one month. We've gotten amino acids in a lab with basic elements within a week. Furthermore, the Bible's a story. A bunch of stories. Who's to say God didn't create the Big Bang and let everything happen from there? In some ways, the knowledge it'd take to say "I'm going to make a big bang and it's going to play out like this" is more impressive than "god made earth and put people on it." Plus, some things I consider fact fly right in the face of the "god put people on the earth." Where are the people from the days of the dinosaur? The bible doesn't talk about that. And, well - that's fine, because it's a story, and not necessarily what happened - but surely the all-knowing God would have known people would eventually find holes in the stories, so why not tell Jesus to fill in some of those holes pre-emptively? Why would a God who, undoubtedly, wants people to follow him leave so many obstacles and holes that cause doubt? I'm a good person. I'm going to live my life in a happy, good way and respect others while I'm here. But when I'm done, I'm done. I don't need the promise of an afterlife to be good with the time I have now.

[jamo]

More educated people also more likely to be Democrats, but that doesn't make them right.

Oooh mixing a religious debate with a political debate, this ought to be fun

.

[iacas]

Oooh mixing a religious debate with a political debate, this ought to be fun

I haven't read anything since my post, but remember the general rules (this isn't directed at jamo, but in scanning his post it may be necessary):

a) remember to be civil b) remember that this is a golf forum c) if there's any hint of a problem i'll close the thread d) if there are any posts that are out of line, report them so we can take appropriate action (which may not involve c - maybe we'll just delete a single post if it's out of bounds)

[nike_golf]

Nike-golf you remined me of the religous leaders of the dark and middle ages. Science that confliced with the Cristian belief was meet with harsh and inhumain treatment of those who didn't believe. Scientist at the time were always in fear for their life because of the churches hard line on science that in any way confliced with their beliefs. Wake up, it's the 21st century it's OK to to believe in the truth that science provides. It doesn't prove or diprove the existance of God so you can still be a Christian. It would just make you a bit smarter in the end.

You're reading way too much into it. Like the atheist, you want me to fit some kind of mold or perception that you have of Christians in general. Wise up.

[nike_golf]

It seems either people are too smart for religion, or just too good for it. And now we're correlating being dumb to being religious. Oh brother. And some want to stick on the "Bible" issue. Look, not every Christian, myself included, takes everything the bible says literally. I don't even think its super important to understand EVERYTHING in the bible, especially the old testament. I believe as long as a person knows and believes the important beliefs of Christianity, then you're in business.

I'm still curious. What goes through an atheists head when they're lying on their death bed?

Atheists believe that this simple and short life is all there is, and nothing more?

How did we all come to be?