The Iron Numbering/Loft Marketing Swindle

[B-Con]

Rather than hijack the

TaylorMade Burner 6-iron Give-Away thread, I figured I'd start a thread for the iron loft rant. From that thread:

Funny, they advertise how much farther their burner iron goes compared to their competitors. This is why I would never buy a TaylorMade club. Irons are not made to hit the ball far, they're made to gap distances, and anyone stupid enough to buy into an iron that hits the ball farther is probably also the reason companies like Amway stay in business.

I too really, really hate how they use this marketing strategy. First, it's just misleading. Two clubs may actually hit farther when struck properly and, all else equal, I'd probably prefer the club that hits farther because the farther I can hit with a shorter club the better, because I'm less likely to mess up a swing with a shorter club.

Second, it's irritating because the people who write reviews have to say "I hit my 5 iron 10 yards farther with this model!" That's because their new 5-iron has the loft of their old 4-iron. They'd have to compare the new 5-iron against the old 4-iron. Such reviews are useless, but 75% of reviews at least mention distance, if not focus on it. This is, obviously, what the manufacturers want :

History on this: Early cavity backs with perimeter weighting popped the ball up higher than musclebacks, and lost a little distance. Ping guys made lofts a degree or two stronger to keep distances same. Then, marketing guys decided to make lofts even stronger so that they trumpet, for example, a six iron that...

It makes finding useful club reviews difficult because most reviewers focus on distance over feel.

For example, I've had my eye on the TaylorMade R7 irons based on their price and positive feedback from many (not counting the "distance improvement" reviews) that they're good clubs for someone in the phase of game-improvement. From the loft specs on the TM website, in the R7 set the PW is 45* and the AW is 50*. Basically, it's as if they took all the clubs and shifted them down by one number and added a wedge at the top to fill the gap. I looked at the clubs in person recently and, IMO, the PW isn't even a wedge, it looks like the 9-iron but is only a little shorter and a little more lofted. For all practical purposes, it's a 10-iron. But I've read dozens of reviews where players say they hit everything from the 9-iron to the 4-iron "so much farther" than their last set of irons. It's annoying. But while these marketing antics put me off, I don't know that we can judge the clubs by how they're marketed, and I consider the number stamped on the head to be a part of the marketing. I don't know how the internals of a company like TaylorMade works, but I'm guessing the people who design the actual clubhead aren't the people who decide what set is going to offer which lofts. The marketing decisions are likely made independently of the engineering decisions. I'm guessing the engineers received orders to make clubs of certain lofts and then someone else got orders to stamp a certain letter / number on the head. Marketing departments have a reputation for being manipulative with labeling and statistics, so all this kind of behavior says is that they have a typical marketing department. Maybe some other golf companies have built more honest marketing departments, but I'm not sure a lack of one is indicative of quality. I've seen many good products come with some questionable marketing.

Of course, classic story. All GI style clubs are a bit stronger than blades. I don't see a problem with this. The problem is, they start to make these insane claims, like "we engineered eight individual irons..." No, you delofted them. All they did was make a set where the longer irons were made even stronger. In a game where most people can't even hit their long irons, they made them longer, and stronger, and delofted the whole set to begin with. The pitching wedge is 45°! That's insane.

Here's another vote for just stamping the lofts on the clubs. If they had just started doing that in the beginning then this particular marketing game couldn't exist and the market would be more straight forward.

For fun, let me ask a question in addition to the poll (which I think will be heavily skewed): Compare your 8-iron to your 9-iron, and then your 9-iron to your PW. (Assuming they're all from the same set.) Is the PW seem more like a true wedge or more like the natural extension of a 9-iron into a "10-iron"?

[Gioguy21]

I chose Classic Iron Number for two reasons: I know lofts and whatnot change based on who makes it at and what line of clubs it is (sometimes). I've always went by the number on the club, regardless of loft and say, 'ok, i can hit a 6 180.' For me it's always been that way, never about the loft * or who makes it. It goes as far as it goes. If you put a D on my PW...I'd still hit it 140-150...doesn't mean i'm gonna suddenly pull it on the tee box (except par 3's lol) I really don't care what companies do, a golf club is a golf club; you either hit it or you don't.

[Zeph]

Loft all the way. I don't call my wedges gap wedge, sand wedge and lob wedge. The degrees can vary on each of them, and I can use all of them as a gap, sand and lob wedge. Iron numbers doesn't matter much anymore with such huge differences in loft from manufacturer to manufacturer. A 5 iron doesn't tell me anything, I have to know the loft of the club.

Both loft and number would work too.

[FHopper]

I will paraphrase what I said on the other thread:
We all know that lofts are no longer consistent with club numbers and do not care what number is on the club. If I need to go 150 yards I use the club that does that. Do you really think Taylormade wants everyone to fly over the green as a marketing ploy? I do not think anyone feels duped, I knew the lofts before I bought, what moron would not? The Burner irons are a very well engineered club that works.. and Sir Nick likes them! I am willing to bet my old Titleist clubs have lower lofts than current sets of any brand. I do think it would be great if the industry used the club number to indicate the relative shaft length and had the loft to indicate trajectory. And lets face it, it is up to our swing to determine the distance.
This reminds me of the "I will never put unleaded gas in my tank", but it was the future. If low CG, high MOI, and trampoline COR are the way clubs will be from now on then the old "unit of measurement" probably needs to evolve too. Once again, Taylormade is not stupid, but it does have a marketing division! Shanks was all frreaked out about the eight different clubs claim, and in fact they only have three different sets of parameters and should market them that way. Long Irons have larger heads and greater offsets to make the long irons easier to hit, well I like that a whole lot better than some half hybrid plastic capped thumper. The middle irons have smaller heads, less offset and are less radical, the short irons are really pretty traditional clubs. Well long irons are hard to hit so lets make then super GIs, mids easier, make them GI and shorts are about accuracy and feel so they are players clubs. With stronger lofts they added an approach wedge to complete the set, I guess they were not trying to fool anyone after all. Now is that really so stupid?
There are certainly times when marketing gets out of control and TM pushes the boundaries, but more for life cycle than misrepresentation.

[onthehunt526]

I don't have that problem never did... I recently went back to Ping Eye2 irons... after playing Taylor Made blades for a few years... my irons are weak as hell.... 2/18.5; 3/21.5; 4/25; 5/28.5; 6/32; 7/36; 8/40; 9/45; W/50.5; S/57.5; L/61... I like the weak lofts and the high trajectory

[ET-Taylor]

number because that is wat im used to

[MSDOGS1976]

I don't care to do away with the number, but adding the loft would be ok.

[Shindig]

As a big fan of traditional lofts, I have to say: number only. There are plenty of good reasons to bend a club strong or weak, and when that doesn't match the listed loft, too much confusion can result.

[jamo]

I don't see much of a problem. People should be smart enough to buy irons for the best look/fee/performance. You should be looking to fill distance gaps, and it shouldn't matter how far you can hit each one. If it really matters to you, look up the loft on the companies website or, better yet, before you buy the clubs, bring the rest of your bag and see which clubs you need to fill in the gaps. If your PW is 45* (as in the case of the Burners), you're going to need a GW, but your 3 iron will be 19*, so you might not need a 2 hybrid or a 5 wood.

Thus, i really don't care what they put, so i just stuck to the numbers.

[FairwayFrank]

I hope Taylormade doesn't start a trend of making lofts stronger for irons .If that happens and other companies start doing the same , then i would like to have both the number and the loft on the club. You don't have to stamp the loft right besides the number , just stamp it on the hosel or the heel of the club , just put it anywhere , so we know we aren't being fooled.

[patriot07]

I chose Classic Iron Number for two reasons: I know lofts and whatnot change based on who makes it at and what line of clubs it is (sometimes). I've always went by the number on the club, regardless of loft and say, 'ok, i can hit a 6 180.' For me it's always been that way, never about the loft * or who makes it. It goes as far as it goes. If you put a D on my PW...I'd still hit it 140-150...doesn't mean i'm gonna suddenly pull it on the tee box (except par 3's lol) I really don't care what companies do, a golf club is a golf club; you either hit it or you don't.

+1. I don't care what loft my 6-iron is. I just know I hit it 170. I've got alot more important things to do than start associating lofts with distances.

[Bullitt5339]

I voted for numbers only............ Reason:

I don't care what the loft is honestly, as long as I know for my set which club is good for what distance.

[B-Con]

This is interesting, I'd expected more votes for the "loft only" option.

I chose Classic Iron Number for two reasons: I know lofts and whatnot change based on who makes it at and what line of clubs it is (sometimes). I've always went by the number on the club, regardless of loft and say, 'ok, i can hit a 6 180.' For me it's always been that way, never about the loft * or who makes it. It goes as far as it goes. If you put a D on my PW...I'd still hit it 140-150...doesn't mean i'm gonna suddenly pull it on the tee box (except par 3's lol) I really don't care what companies do, a golf club is a golf club; you either hit it or you don't.

This seems to be the typical reasoning for this answer. And of course, it is true. Once you have a bag of clubs and you know the clubs, they could be stamped with Greek symbols for all you care. If you know how far you hit delta, epsilon, and pi, that's all that matters. No matter what got stamped on the club, you'd come to learn it. So in that sense, lofts are equivalent to the traditional numbering system, you just have two symbols instead of one. The advantage in stamping the lofts or having a standard for club numbers is not to help you understand your own set better, rather it makes transitioning between clubs easier. You can easily compare clubs from different sets when you transition between them or talk to other people about them whether it be in casual converstion of in writing, etc.

For fun, let me ask a question in addition to the poll (which I think will be heavily skewed): Compare your 8-iron to your 9-iron, and then your 9-iron to your PW. (Assuming they're all from the same set.) Is the PW seem more like a true wedge or more like the natural extension of a 9-iron into a "10-iron"?

Anyone want to compare their 9-iron to their PW? I'm particularly interested in sets from the past three-ish years.

[Gioguy21]

Well i can say this, i went from a set where literally the club i'm hitting is a full club (by loft) stronger than my previous set. I had ping ISI-K's and could hit that 7 as far as i hit my current 8 iron, but when talking to people about the clubs i don't say "oh i'm hitting it a club and a half better", but rather "they are about a half club longer, and more forgiving than my ping's"...based on my knowledge of the fact the irons are the same loft with a different stamp on the bottom. I know what people are saying about the fact that TaylorMade and other companies are lofting their given irons stronger... I just don't understand the stigma of it or the anger people have...who gives a shit? lol

[Cussin hacker]

It should be both. Lofts vary widely from one Manufacture to another and it would be nice to have both on the club.

[Fastrack]

It doesn't matter whether either one or both on the club, but I need number. Different brand may have different loft, but once I know which number works for me for particular distance, that's all I need while I am on the course.

[ET-Taylor]

also if i need a six iron then i will need to line all my irons in order from highest loft to lowest loft to take a stab at which one I have to take

[Shanks A Million]

Hmm, looks like I started a war. Well, I used to play Tommy Armours, and they all had the loft and number on them. I loved this, I never had to question what I was hitting, and when I needed to fill a gap, I knew that my 3 iron was 21°, and my PW was 48°. This made it easy to select clubs, I had a 60° wedge, so it was natural that a 54° would fit perfectly. I wanted a 2 hybrid, so a 19° was 3° stronger than the 3 iron, easy.

The problem with the shrinking lofts is that it's a stupid game that can't be won. TM lowers their loft, so now every other company must to lower their loft to compete. In the late 90s, it got to a boiling point, and finally it settled back down. But now TM is opening up this can of worms again, boasting like idiots about how their 6 iron hits it farther than mine. I don't want to hear it. Sell me accuracy, sell me forgiveness, but not distance.