Officially Fixed my push fade, for real this time....

[TN94z]

I said to close it from open to square, not getting it closed to the alignment. Could perhaps call it "square up" or "turn the clubface square".

My point is, if he is swinging over the top, that needs to be fixed. Fixing anything other that what is the main cause of a problem, IMO, is a bandaid fix. You can change your grip from normal, or change club face alignment, or aim, but it's all a bandaid to the main problem. What you said is correct and I'm not arguing that. I'm just stating that my opinion is he fix the real problem.

[Zeph]

I've never said he should not try to fix the swingpath, in fact I've encouraged him to do it.

The reason why I mentioned only the clubhead is because in theory, he could be swinging out-to-in, in-square-in or in-to-out with that flight path. I assume that he was swinging OTT, but as long as the clubface is open, there is no guarantee. I'm swinging in-to-out, or in-square-in, and my only miss left is a push-fade when I leave the clubface open.

Getting the clubface square will go a long way to help identify the severity of a swingpath. If the ball starts out straight and bananas out right, the swingpath is of course very much OTT. If it's just a small fade, it's not as severe. Either way, working on deeper hands and a better weight shift forward will go a long way to get the swingpath in-to-out.

[TN94z]

I've never said he should not try to fix the swingpath, in fact I've encouraged him to do it.

Okay. Sounds good. Pretty obvious stuff there

[MJP]

The ball will always fade with a clubface open to the swingpath, yes. The "push" part comes from the clubface being open to your alignment. Someone swinging over the top with a square clubface is also hitting a fade, but a straight fade since the clubface is square to the alignment at impact. If we didn't use push/straight/pull, all shots would be either a fade, straight or draw (or slice/straight/hook).

I've been trying to make my understanding of the ball flights 2nd nature. So thank you for clarifying. Today at the range I worked on getting my hands very deep early and to start with I was hitting high push fades (i loved the the high trajectory) to start with. Then I realized I was just slightly open to the swing path. So I started closing the face at address with a stronger left hand grip. This fixed the fade part and I was hitting some good push draws but they weren't very consistent. Some were 30-40y straight and pull hooks, that still went 220+. I was getting a lot better at drawing it it seemed like to the point where I was hooking it. My hands must have been getting even deeper at that point because once I switched back to a neutral grip and square clubface, the hooks and pulls were gone (due to the face not being so shut to prevent that push fade/slice) and I was finally hitting a high push draw. Sometimes I would notice myself thinking about getting so deep I'd forget to get steep enough and I started hitting 200y push draw pop ups (probably due to being too far inside?). The ball flight was easily 30y higher than those high push draws I was loving so much.

At that point it had been about 50 balls with the driver and 150 total so my hands were beat. Can't wait to put in some more work on this. The takeaway still feels awkard but at least I can hit the shot I've been looking for with it.

[Zeph]

Sometimes I would notice myself thinking about getting so deep I'd forget to get steep enough and I started hitting 200y push draw pop ups (probably due to being too far inside?). The ball flight was easily 30y higher than those high push draws I was loving so much.

Make sure you get the hands deep, not rotating the arms and getting the clubhead inside.

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/threads...ands-Explained

At that point it had been about 50 balls with the driver and 150 total so my hands were beat. Can't wait to put in some more work on this. The takeaway still feels awkard but at least I can hit the shot I've been looking for with it.

That is a good thing. If you are working on a change, awkward feelings are supposed to happen, or at least feelings you are not used to. It is an indication that you are doing things differently.

[MJP]

Make sure you get the hands deep, not rotating the arms and getting the clubhead inside.

So, are you saying that the pop ups were a result of the clubhead getting too deep (too far inside the deep hands?).

I know I was getting my hands deep, you don't have to link me to that thread. I revived it after all (mostly because I wanted to know as much as Iacas knows about the golf swing...which is not possible but hey I can try :P) so I went through a lot of his threads. It just so happened to be the reason I couldn't hit a push draw and why I was coming over it so much. A couple weeks ago I straightened out my old swing by simply taking a large Freddy couples like extension outside and then looping back inside to swing in to out. The problem with this is it wasn't help me hit in to out, just less over the top. The deep hands seems to be the real culprit behind the OTT.

[Shanks A Million]

I would be willing to bet my shirt the OP is hitting an over the top slice, not a push fade. The true push fade is just so rare. I find a true push fade is generally very mild, if it even exists. A lot of people want to believe they aren't swinging over the top, so they rationalize it as a push fade.

But the bottom line is, we've all been there. Most of us sliced, and for most, it took years to fix. It's nothing to be ashamed of, many of us still occasionally have a small fade creep up on us. The rest of us curse the hook.

[Zeph]

I would be willing to bet my shirt the OP is hitting an over the top slice, not a push fade. The true push fade is just

Technically, a push-fade is a shot starting right and continuing going right. So you can hit that shot with any kind of swingpath really. It will of course be more severe with an OTT swing than an in-out one. One can of course debate over a slice vs a fade, but those have the same flight pattern.

I don't see why a push fade is so rare really, all you need is an open clubface to the alignment and a swingpath somewhere inside of the clubface angle.

[MJP]

Wow that wording really confused me, but I got it. Swingpath somewhere inside the clubface angle means the same as clubface angle outside the swing path. The latter is the one my ears are more used to hearing (probably the only one they've heard), that's why it confused me.

[Shanks A Million]

Technically, a push-fade is a shot starting right and continuing going right. So you can hit that shot with any kind of swingpath really. It will of course be more severe with an OTT swing than an in-out one. One can of course debate over a slice vs a fade, but those have the same flight pattern.

The term fade, to most implies that the swingpath was straight or inside out. Slice generally refers to it being outside in. It may be arbitrary, but it's so hard to fix a problem when you don't understand it properly.

But even so, the question of where the ball is actually starting, and where we perceive it to be starting is totally another thing. What may seem like a push may be a straight, or even a pulled shot. Most golfers believe they are lined up farther left than they are. Gary McCord wrote in his book that in the 20 years he played on tour, in every single pro am he ever played in someone was alligned improperly, and many times, it was him. Allignment is very important, because again, feel is not real. I spent a good amount of time fighting what I thought was a push, but turned out to be a straight ball going right where I was aligned.

[Dad-2-3]

Allignment is very important, because again, feel is not real. I spent a good amount of time fighting what I thought was a push, but turned out to be a straight ball going right where I was aligned.

This is the very reason that an alignment stick or club should be used as an alignment aid on the range while practicing. It takes misaligment out of the equation when diagnosing issues.

[Shanks A Million]

This is the very reason that an alignment stick or club should be used as an alignment aid on the range while practicing. It takes misaligment out of the equation when diagnosing issues.

Ha, you'd think, but even I have videos of myself hitting with a stick, and still misaligned.

[Valleygolfer]

I would be willing to bet my shirt the OP is hitting an over the top slice, not a push fade. The true push fade is just

Last I knew a push fade starts out straight, but right (right handed) and then starts to curve once it is out about 100-150 yards or so. That was my typical drive. I do not deny that I also throw in a over the top slice every so often but I tended to push fade more often leaving me consistently in the tree line with little or no second shot for the gir. Now I have the straight to slight draw with the occasional sharp hook, no duck hook yet. Although the last round I played, nothing worked, I had a mix of everything and felt like I had sand in my underwear standing over every shot. I wanted to pack it up after 4 holes. I swear I will never play another round without hitting the range first.

[James_Black]

here's a question.

My normal shot is a fade (not a bad one, only a few feet).
When I get nervous, I get a hook with my driver. Why is that? is it because I flick my wrists too quickly?

[Shanks A Million]

Last I knew a push fade starts out straight, but right (right handed) and then starts to curve once it is out about 100-150 yards or so. That was my typical drive. I do not deny that I also throw in a over the top slice every so often but I tended to push fade more often leaving me consistently in the tree line with little or no second shot for the gir. Now I have the straight to slight draw with the occasional sharp hook, no duck hook yet. Although the last round I played, nothing worked, I had a mix of everything and felt like I had sand in my underwear standing over every shot. I wanted to pack it up after 4 holes. I swear I will never play another round without hitting the range first.

If the ball starts straight, then fades, it's an over the top slice. A ball cannot start straight and then curve right with a straight or inside out club path.

[iacas]

If the ball starts straight, then fades, it's an over the top slice. A ball cannot start straight and then curve right with a straight or inside out club path.

Inside out (relative to the face) will produce a draw. Why do you keep saying inside out = fade or slice?

[Zeph]

The term fade, to most implies that the swingpath was straight or inside out. Slice generally refers to it being outside in. It may be arbitrary, but it's so hard to fix a problem when you don't understand it properly.

How did you come to this conclusion? If someone with an OTT swing swing outside-in 6º with a clubface aimed 3º, the ball will fade left to right and come down around 0º. That swing has nothing to do with inside-out path. The only way to hit a fade with an in-out swingpath is by opening the face, so naturally you will have to aim left.

Fade/slice = Ball turn left to right Draw/hook = Ball turn right to left Those don't indicate anything about your swingpath. Only if you know the alignment and clubface angle too, you can tell from the flight how the swingpath was. I can hit a slice with my in-out (or in-square-in) swingpath, but it'll be a push-slice (or push-fade). A straight-fade require a swing out-in because straight tells us the clubface was square to the alignment.

[jamo]

The term fade, to most implies that the swingpath was straight or inside out. Slice generally refers to it being outside in.

That's the first time I've ever heard that. Fade is just a less severe fade, and vise-versa. You can hit a fade with a two degree (relative to target) out to in swing. And you can hit a slice with a two degree (relative to target) in to out swing.