I hate the whole "pro/amateur" illusion!

[Jaywun]

I just love this whole topic. The am-pro difference debate has and will go on forever. With 3 grown children who were very competitive in sports, I saw and coached a bunch of "sure things" that never even got scholarships. I think we have all known kids who could run a 4.3 40 and bench 300 in high school and never even get close to the show. Dan Marino has said many times that there were neiborhood kids that were better than him. Jerry Rice had among the slowest 40 times of all wide receivers. At every level Larry Bird was told he wouldn't make it at the next level. Then there are the others (majority) like Deon Sanders who said in Pop Warner he scored every single time he touched the ball. So whats the formula, the variable, the IT? I was often amazed that in every championship game with seconds left and they needed a goal, Michael Jordon ALWAYS got the ball, even on nights when he had a horrible fg percentage. I always second guessed the coach, until he made the shot!
I mention all this because I feel there are lots of parallels between these guys and +handicap guys that can't make the mini tours as well as Canadian tour/Nationwide/etc. guys that don't have the IT for the PGA. Alot of these guys would be among the leaders in ball striking statistics but will never make it. Then there are all the other guys- Zach Johnson cut from Varsity golf team in high School. One of the few PGA guys I can actually outdrive HAS A GREEN JACKET!
Basically, it is very diverse. It is not black and white. No, not every physically capable person with a love of Golf if given the means could consistently make cuts on Tour. Of course not. Probably not even 1 in a million. But there are also thousands of people that, if they had the means, would be household names.
Now, my personal opinion. I feel the key is nothing more than BELIEF. Whether that belief is valid or just based on ignorance, thats all I see as the IT factor. Out of all the guys going to first stage tour school this year. I'll bet there's only a handful that KNOW they'll be on the PGA tour. I dont mean just 'say it'. I mean believe it 100%. As sure of it as I'm sure of eating dinner and going to bed tonite. I remember watching Christina Kim hitting balls here in San Jose when she was 14. Of course she was a great player, but what I'll never forget was her attitude. There was not a shred of doubt that she was going to the LPGA. Now I or anyone else could have sat her down and gave her a million valid reasons why she wasn't going to be a pro. But she would've just laughed and said we were wrong. Just like if we said the sky is green and the grass is blue.
So I say, If your playing under par. And TRULY see yourself on tour, go for it. Even if you're working 60 hrs a week raising a family. The worse thing that can happen is sitting, watching golf on tv at 60, knowing you could have done it, but didn't. Remember Abe Lincoln took his bar exam 8 times before he passed!
Go ahead, jump on me if you disagree. Im too old to care and kinda like the attention.

[sean_miller]

So I say, If your playing under par. And TRULY see yourself on tour, go for it. Even if you're working 60 hrs a week raising a family. The worse thing that can happen is sitting, watching golf on tv at 60, knowing you could have done it, but didn't. Remember Abe Lincoln took his bar exam 8 times before he passed!

Guys who regularly shoot under par don't typically participate in this discussion. They have a pretty good idea whether or not they could make it, and whether or not they'd want to try. It's usually the 20+ index guys who feel the only thing preventing them from making it through Q school is a few more buckets of range balls per week and a dedicated swing coach. Maybe one in a hundred thousand of them is right.

[Bryan SD2]

Guys who regularly shoot under par don't typically participate in this discussion. They have a pretty good idea whether or not they could make it, and whether or not they'd want to try. It's usually the 20+ index guys who feel the only thing preventing them from making it through Q school is a few more buckets of range balls per week and a dedicated swing coach. Maybe one in a hundred thousand of them is right.

No, one in 100,000 is delusional enough to post about it. 1 in 10,000,000 can go from adult 20 capper to the SENIOR TOUR by the time they reach proper age. I have attended more than 75 PGA and Senior Tour events in a past job. Watched thousands of balls hit on the range and another thousand on the course. Befriended caddies, an announcer or two and spoke with some players several times a year. These guys are in another world when it comes to their current ability to hit a golf ball. 20 Cappers have a better chance of becoming a President, a Serial Killer, or performing successful at home gender transformation surgery than ever teeing it up on Tour other than the Wednesday Pro Am.

[Clambake]

It really takes a perfect situation of somebody who already possesses that talent or potential talent and the necessary time to dedicate to the game to create a real pro.

Now, my personal opinion. I feel the key is nothing more than BELIEF. Whether that belief is valid or just based on ignorance, thats all I see as the IT factor.

I don't disagree with either of these thoughts, but I think it still goes way beyond just having the inherent talent, time, and belief. Althought these are essential, these probably get a lot of players to be competitive in H.S., perhaps college, or maybe even on the mini-tours. But I think to make it on the biggest stages of any sport, whether it is on Tour, the NBA, NFL, WTA, etc. these still aren't sufficient.

I'd throw in a few more key factors. A tremendous amount of support and sacrifice from parents willing to do whatever is needed to satisfy the player's growing needs. Peers or others who provide the motivation that drives someone to always be better than they are. A certain obsessiveness is needed to put in the time needed to practice seemingly minute details hour after hour. And finally, a pretty strong self-centered ego in one's personality that is needed to pull it all together - I doubt anyone could go through all that's necessary to play among the best without being a bit of a selfish bastard. And many are far more than "a bit". Probably some would argue with me on the last point and may point to top athlete's support of charitable causes as proof they aren't so selfish, but to that I'll proactively offer a couple counter arguments. First, why do so many athletes always name their foundations after themselves or not give more anonymously if there still isn't a selfish ego involved? Also, psychologists will show that there are compensating parts in all our personalities, and the charitable focus (while fantastic) is still largely a compensation for years of selfish behavior.

[Easy]

I just love this whole topic. The am-pro difference debate has and will go on forever. With 3 grown children who were very competitive in sports, I saw and coached a bunch of "sure things" that never even got scholarships. I think we have all known kids who could run a 4.3 40 and bench 300 in high school and never even get close to the show. Dan Marino has said many times that there were neiborhood kids that were better than him. Jerry Rice had among the slowest 40 times of all wide receivers. At every level Larry Bird was told he wouldn't make it at the next level. Then there are the others (majority) like Deon Sanders who said in Pop Warner he scored every single time he touched the ball. So whats the formula, the variable, the IT? I was often amazed that in every championship game with seconds left and they needed a goal, Michael Jordon ALWAYS got the ball, even on nights when he had a horrible fg percentage. I always second guessed the coach, until he made the shot!

Great post.

I love to hear stories about Jerry Rice's sickening work ethic.

[noefi13b]

FWIW I perhaps oversimplified my arguement about practice verses "talent".... Let me clarify

I have NEVER said that a 30 year old 20+ HCP could make the Pro tour with "a few hours" range practice and a better teacher....But I can guarentee that if I had a golf club in my hand since before I was 1 y/o, spent all of my youth playing golf under good quality instruction I would appear more "talented" than I do today.... but the fact would be I would be no more "talented" that I am today... More skillfull yes, talented no.... Please do not confuse skill with talent....

In the case of sports where size makes a difference I can partly see the other side of the arguement but physical charaterists are just that, they are not talent... This article touches on just how much practice and thought process can overcome physical limitations
http://www.sciencentral.com/articles...e_id=218392857

So far the "facts" I have heard to support the arguement that talent is real are as follows

1)The Pros are that good that there has to be something they have that I don't.... Rather than thinking maybe I didn't work as hard or as smart or have the opportunity that they had we immediately say "well they just have more talent then me" sorry but still feels like a cop out.... Sure they have more skill but as I said before don't confuse skill with talent

2)Its genetic. Are you serious? Sure if you were born with one arm it might pose a problem but how do genetics come into it... Its not like there is a golfing gene going around.... Are you trying to say that identical twins separated at birth would poses the same golf ability 30 years later, if one started at 5 and the other at 25?

The irony of the arguement from my perspective is until fairly recently I would have said "of course talent exists" without really even giving it a thought... But the more I read and the more I think about it the less I think it is the case.... A google search reveals this isn't the first place for this debate to take place...

[Bigtank]

I love this question.....

Like I have posted the last two times in several weeks it has showed up....the guys on the Nationwide Tour and then the PGA tour are unbelievably TALENTED…

Golf absolutely has genetic predispositions that make it easier for one over another. First off there is the mental aptitude to put it all together on a regular basis. Hitting certain shots in a given situation takes creativity, which if I’m not mistaken is a quality of intelligence? Then there is the muscular and skeletal makeup, which allows a person to torque and release that tension in a fluid repeatable powerful stroke millions of times. There is the intense hand-eye coordination required to move you hands into the groove at the split second to separate a putt for birdie and missing the green. Then there is the vision to see the breaks, read the greens and maneuver the course, until the recent advances with vision correction, this attribute stifled many careers.

I was one of those “lucky” kids that was very fortunate to grow up around the game. I started swinging a club at 3, and it never left my side. I was exposed to some excellent instruction from a former tour player (before it was a lucrative sport). I practiced day and night, read every magazine and book…it was my passion. I played in high school, I played AJGA and travelled…my parents spared no expense to let me chase whatever I had in mine……So why am I a better than average golfer and not on tour????

Now for the 3rd time I tell this story. My college roommate and teammate, is a current successful member of the PGA tour. I played a round on a respectable Nationwide Tour event holding course a month or two back. I played well with a 67 (-3), my former roommate goofed around and fired a 62 (-9).

Let me tell you there is a great deal of a difference between the + handicapped golfer and the PGA tour pro, and the average 15 handicappers might as well be on a different continent.

Some of us were born with the gifts to play a game for a living, others where not. Just like some of use were born with the gifts to be musicians, doctors, scientists, etc.

[Bigtank]

Oh, and for the poster that mentioned that the average par 4 is 350, or 120 for the average par 3? Does he mean from the red tees?

My buddies son plays in our local father son matches, and they set up courses like that…for the 7 year olds, and he shoots 82-83?

Look at some of the par 3’s this year on tour and some have approached 300yds, Par 5’s over 620yards. Take your Wedge, Wedge, Wedge, 2 putt to a 600 yard pard five. Heck I’ll give a 5 iron?

Play a real course with some teeth, and tell me you would shoot an 88 first itme out....no dice!

[newtogolf]

2)Its genetic. Are you serious? Sure if you were born with one arm it might pose a problem but how do genetics come into it... Its not like there is a golfing gene going around.... Are you trying to say that identical twins separated at birth would poses the same golf ability 30 years later, if one started at 5 and the other at 25?

Yes, it is genetic, read science books not self help books and you'll see there are definite genetic traits among professional athletes, including golfers. Genetics have a large influence over strength, muscle size and muscle fiber composition (fast or slow twitch), anaerobic threshold (AT), lung capacity, flexibility, and, to some extent, endurance. In addition, eye sight, hand eye coordination, pain tolerance, ability to focus and concentrate. Even your muscles, tendons and ligaments susceptibility to injury from repeated overuse is genetic.

We're not talking huge genetic differences in golfer compared to other sports, but enough to make the difference between an outstanding amatuer and a pro.

[Lefty-Golfer]

i take it you have never been to a large turny for softball? The Mens majors will make somewhere between 100k-350k a year ?

fast pitch or slow?

[Deryck Griffith]

For the doubters go and read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell or Bounce by Matthew Syed.... The later even uses Tiger as an example that reinforces the arguement...

I brought up the points on running and brain surgeons. As it pertains to the Brain Surgeon, as an example at my company, we recently fired an engineer who just wasn't cut out to do the job. This young guy (East Indian) studied his brains out since he was 9 to be the best he can be in school and with the cultural pressure of being an engineer as a career path, went to grad school to become engineer. We hired him 2 years ago and with all of the studying he did, just wasn't cut out to be an Engineer. He made tons of mistakes during his employment at our company and he is a great example of someone who studied his ass off to then still not have the ability. Why is he uncapable where others are? Being an engineer doesn't require any physical ability, the only requirement is brain smarts. So again, why can't he deliver as an engineer? He did everything necessary to succeed...his parents are rich so money and resources also wasn't an issue and again, he studied harder than most throughout high school, univeristy and grad school.

I guess that is the trick question that we are all trying to figure out in this thread...

[LongballGer]

My college roommate and teammate, is a current successful member of the PGA tour.

Who is it?

When you make such claims you gotta back it up.

[TXjammer]

I guess that is the trick question that we are all trying to figure out in this thread...

I thought the point to be discussed in this thread was: "If you can't apply yourself to this game as fully as the ones making a living at it, how can you be discouraged when you don't play to their level?"

Never was the point to say who could or could not be a pro. This got way out of hand. All I wanted to accomplish with my rant was to encourage the discouraged....you know who you are. I tried to do so by saying, you most likely not going to be able (with a real job and family life) to accomplish your top potential, and it's stupid to make the excuses for the gap b/w you and them by saying they are super-human and have special equipment. I went on to say, the industry supports those myths to keep the pros in an iconic limelight and to sell equipment.

[Saig55]

Well, I can honestly say that I thpught I was the best second baseman in the world as a teenager. My idol was Nellie Fox, yes I'm old. I tried out for the New York Mets at one of their camps, and I gotta tell you, there were plenty of players that were much better than me. Nobody practiced more than me or played more ball than I did back then. That is when I realized there is a huge difference between me and the guy's who could really play. I had a rifle for an arm, they had a cannon. I ran an 8 sec 60 yd time, most of the players ran faster.
Athletic ability, some are born with it and with practice become great, some don't have great ability but practice hard to achieve all they can and it still is not enough. But, there are always exceptions to the rules.

So I agree!!

[walk18]

I don't find that to be impossible. It's very good and very rare, but I wouldn't consider it impossible. And when someone plays their first round I wouldn't expect it to be at a real tough course or at least not from the tips.

[Elephant789]

I wish I was a pro.

[sean_miller]

I wish I was a pro.

Do it. I think you can turn pro at any time.

[max power]

Do it. I think you can turn pro at any time.

Use the power of mental thinking.