"Swing Machine Golf" by Paul Wilson

[DaveP043]

18 minutes ago, Otis2014 said:

I posted early in this thread and am returning due to this fascinating discussion over the definition of "effortless."

As someone who has watched every Paul Wilson video produced over the past three years and has had 3-4 in person lessons with Mr. Wilson in Las Vegas I can confirm this - the more I use my arms in the swing the worse the result. When I'm hitting the ball well my arms are not even part of my thought process.

There are plenty of great players and teachers who will and can nitpick the heck out of Wilson's teachings but three years ago I was a 52-year old recreational golfer with a 25 handicap who was worn out after every round and close to giving up the game. Today at 55 I'm a 10 and hit the ball 20-30 yards further than my 30- and 40-year old friends and playing partners with very, very little effort.

All I'm saying is there are merits to Paul Wilson's philosophy. Those who have tried it have far more credibility on the subject that a bunch of video watchers.

I'm no expert in Mr. Wilson's teachings, but in reading what you've said, he teaches a "feeling" of minimizing the effort of the arms.  That doesn't mean don't use the arms at all, it means don't consciously use the arms.  In this post, you say that when you consciously use your arms, you produce bad swings.  An awful lot of what we do swinging the club is subconscious.  Most of us have some kind of "hit" impulse, which tends to under-utilize the body and over-utilize the arms.  A "feeling" of eliminating arm effort can move us towards a better-coordinated overall motion.  It makes complete sense to me that Mr. Wilson's "no arm effort" teaching works great with this kind of player.

[iacas]

19 minutes ago, James_Albatross said:

@iacas you've edited your posts bro - I saved the conversation - you said:

That post was edited within minutes of posting it. Four minutes, in fact:

The original post was made at 10:05 AM. If I typed "majority" in the first version (I have no reason not to believe you), it was corrected within four minutes.

The emails are sent with the content of the original post. Not the edited post.

[James_Albatross]

Yep and you also deleted the posts were you outright insulted me!  Ok so I was reading and arguing against what you said originally - whence why I was in disbelief.  So we are in agreement that the arms do not generate the majority of club head speed.  We disagree to some extent to whether its possible that some peoples swings have negligible arm power.  I'm cool with that, I think we can't really prove it to each other one way or the other over the internet.  BTW I do like most of your other videos I've checked out so far - will continue checking them out.

[iacas]

Just now, James_Albatross said:

Yep and you also deleted the posts were you outright insulted me!

I've not deleted any of my posts. And I apologized for the 90° hips thing, as that was my misreading error.

Just now, James_Albatross said:

So we are in agreement that the arms do not generate the majority of club head speed.

I do not necessarily agree with that, given that you and I cannot arrive at a definition for "the arms" and "generate."

I'll paste in what I said to you in a PM:

The simple fact remains: the arms are not "effortless" or passive or anything like that.

I have no doubt - as I've taught it myself to some students - that the feeling can work for some, but it's not actually how any good golf swing functions.

1 minute ago, James_Albatross said:

We disagree to some extent to whether its possible that some peoples swings have negligible arm power.

Likely.

Every good golf swing uses the arms. They're not what I would call "effortless" or "passive," though I acknowledge that people will often feel that way.

[James_Albatross]

Quote

Every good golf swing uses the arms. They're not what I would call "effortless" or "passive," though I acknowledge that people will often feel that way.

We can now have a civil philosophical discussion about whether if something feels effortless that there is in fact little effort going in...  

[boogielicious]

2 hours ago, nevets88 said:

Also this:

 

I took an AimPoint lesson from Dennis!

29 minutes ago, James_Albatross said:

We can now have a civil philosophical discussion about whether if something feels effortless that there is in fact little effort going in...  

I guess we are all confused at what you are trying to say. The arms contribute a majority of the swing speed (>50% is a majority) regardless of whether you feel it or not. Jamie S's swing used his shoulder turn only, but really no hip turn and he still hit is 300+.

But to properly swing and create good path, your whole both needs to move in a good sequence. This will both create good club head speed and path to make a good strike.

Feel is not real. Filming your swing will tell you this. Things can feel one way, but the reality is in the video. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, James_Albatross said:

We can now have a civil philosophical discussion about whether if something feels effortless that there is in fact little effort going in...  

There’s nothing there to discuss.

The arms expend tremendous effort in a good golf swing.

Less if you exclude the entire backswing, but even then it’s still effort. If the chest, for example, merely rotated, the lead arm would just get smooshed against it for most of the downswing. That the arm moves OFF the chest is an indicator of the effort it is giving.

There’s nothing there to debate.

The arms expend effort.

[GolfLug]

I think to use a broad analogy, arms are like a fishing rod providing casting leverage to the line. The rod itself does not generate leverage (although unfolding right elbow and right wrist is independent leverage) but it has almost all of the leverage transfer function to cast the line. The rod HAS to arc back and snap over and across with a lot of speed. Arms do the same to a large extent. 

I use the image of whipping soft arms (unflexed muscles) across with 'quiet' speed. Feel ain't real but using individual feels provide desired effect. 

 

 

[James_Albatross]

I think we are just using different definitions of effort - philosophical.  I am thinking effort means vigorous use of the arms, and effortless being non-vigorous use - relative to a baseline easy feeling effort.  In my definition deadlifting 250pounds is effortful, and picking up my cat is effortless, but technically its true they are both not effortless.  This is my last post bye!

effort

ˈɛfət/

noun

1.  

   a vigorous or determined attempt.
2. technical

   a force exerted by a machine or in a process.

[iacas]

50 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

I think to use a broad analogy, arms are like a fishing rod providing casting leverage to the line. The rod itself does not generate leverage (although unfolding right elbow and right wrist is independent leverage) but it has almost all of the leverage transfer function to cast the line. The rod HAS to arc back and snap over and across with a lot of speed. Arms do the same to a large extent.

The lead arm is more than just a lever.

32 minutes ago, James_Albatross said:

I think we are just using different definitions of effort

…

a force exerted by a machine or in a process.

Nope. I'm using that one right there. The muscles are actively firing in the arms in the process of making a downswing.

[Otis2014]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

The last part is a lie, the bold part.

I'm not saying that to be a jerk, but you cannot move the clubhead very fast with "very little effort." Very little effort is used to make a three-foot putt. Or even a 20-foot putt. Or hit a chip shot.

The driver requires a tremendous amount of effort, from a ton of muscles in the body.

I'm not interested in discussing feels. I'm glad that, for you, it FEELS like it's effortless. It's not.

I'm glad you've had success, btw. None of this takes anything away from that. Everyone is a feel player, in the end, but not everyone's in need of the same feels, and I generally dislike teaching "feels" to the mass market, because of those differences. Tell my golfer from above to use his arms less or be more "effortless" and he's gonna score himself right off the team.

I'm a liar, eh?

Actually, you can move the clubhead very fast with very little effort. But, keep being a jerk about it.

 

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm no expert in Mr. Wilson's teachings, but in reading what you've said, he teaches a "feeling" of minimizing the effort of the arms.  That doesn't mean don't use the arms at all, it means don't consciously use the arms.  In this post, you say that when you consciously use your arms, you produce bad swings.  An awful lot of what we do swinging the club is subconscious.  Most of us have some kind of "hit" impulse, which tends to under-utilize the body and over-utilize the arms.  A "feeling" of eliminating arm effort can move us towards a better-coordinated overall motion.  It makes complete sense to me that Mr. Wilson's "no arm effort" teaching works great with this kind of player.

Great reply.

Wilson teaches starting the swing with the lower body certainly helps with my overall motion. The body rotates and the arms follow.

There are thousands of opinions and methods on the golf swing but this one certainly works well for me.

 

[GolfLug]

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

The lead arm is more than just a lever.

Of course. Just saying that arms (both) are a huge part of leverage. And then additionally other things as you are alluding to.

Edited April 12, 2018 by GolfLug

[iacas]

13 minutes ago, Otis2014 said:

I'm a liar, eh?

Actually, you can move the clubhead very fast with very little effort. But, keep being a jerk about it.

No, you can't. Moving the clubhead with speed requires a lot of effort.

I understand that you feel it doesn't require much, but a ton of muscles fire in a good golf swing, including those in your arms.

If telling you the truth makes me a "jerk," then this site ain't for you.

13 minutes ago, Otis2014 said:

Great reply.

Wilson teaches starting the swing with the lower body certainly helps with my overall motion. The body rotates and the arms follow.

The only point I've ever made in this entire discussion is that this is a feeling only - this is not what actually happens in the golf swing.

In the golf swing, the arms fire. They contribute, they move, the expend effort, they contract… they aren't just "passive" or "effortless."

13 minutes ago, Otis2014 said:

There are thousands of opinions and methods on the golf swing but this one certainly works well for me.

I'm not discussing "opinions."

[Phil McGleno]

@Otis2014 and @James_Albatross, check out 

And the topic has the videos:

 

[mvmac]

On 4/12/2018 at 12:23 PM, Otis2014 said:

There are thousands of opinions and methods on the golf swing but this one certainly works well for me.

There are opinions and then there are facts. Come on dude, use some common sense.

Do these arms look passive?

[Vinsk]

These arms are moving passively with no effort. This is not what any golfer does with his arms.

[Vinsk]

”So after learning to swing slowly...hitting your [ driver ] 3/4 distance of your norm, just increase the speed of your hip turn and you’ll gain that extra distance.”

Increasing the speed of your hips will increase your arm speed? No. Just no.

[realcam]

Hello Folks,

landed here while searching for opinions on PW's teaching. I'm a registered user for years but never really posted much or anything. So a little intro to myself to start with.

I'm not a fantastic golfer myself, came late to the game at age 35, playing for 10 years now and I'm currently off 12. I enjoy it very much, its a brilliant game and I intend to play it for many years to come. So lately I started to put a bit of thought into how I can get as good as possible.

I think I could be better already - as we all do - but my problem is that I started out with little instruction and what I picked up from the instruction I got hasn't served me very well. Not that the instruction was wrong (in hindsight) but it didn't put the right picture into my head an my instructor wasn't able to spot that I was going down the wrong path

For a good few years I ended up being your typical high handicap slugger. A lot of effort directed at the ball with not many good results and no consistency. It seems to be a typical problem for many guys who get late to the game. We start out finding it difficult to hit such a small ball with such a small implement and we direct all our effort at meeting the ball. By the time we get to a level where we start thinking about it a bit more we are hitters rather than swingers. No good.

We put what seems like a lot of physical effort into it with little result. Then we see lady golfers and juniors who simply aren't strong enough to chug at the ball hitting it past us with what seems a lot less effort. And thats not to be confused with effortless, they hit it hard and generate a lot of club head speed, but with a different kind of effort.

So the challenge is how do I become a swinger?

From what I can tell by now it is about getting away from using effort from the top. When I say effort from he top I mean hands. Let's say the top end are the hands, then the arms, then the shoulders/torso, then the hips and then the legs. Top to bottom. But using the top (hands) seems no good, neither is arms. Shoulder rotation is a little better but still not very good all on its own. Hip is better again. Better again is weight shift and legs. This is just speaking broadly. Of course you gotta have some fundamentals right on grip and setup but probably not much more. And of course some things you couldn't do without the other. You couldn't turn your hips without using your legs. You'd fall over. But the general idea is that we should do bottom to top rather than top to bottom.

I think we naturally tend to do action from the top. This is like what I said above. We try to meet the ball and we start trying with our hands. It seems natural. PW is trying to teach people to get away from that and get the bottom if you like. It seems in itself nothing new or revolutionary. George Knudsons book the 'Natural Golf Swing' is more or less the same but for nuances and its decades old.

I think a lot of people understand that but then they get obsessed with a detail they pick up here and there. For example they hear turn your hips then they tear their hips around like mad and forget everything else. But it seems it should be just a coordinated graceful action starting from the bottom. Nothing mad, nothing violent, all rather coordinated and fluent, but rather from the bottom than from the top.

I find it a surprisingly hard thing to do after doing the opposite for years. I'm working on it for 3 years now and I'm only gradually seeing results. My handicap has come down from 19 to 12 and I'm on the verge of breaking 80 and that's owed a great deal to getting away 'from the top'. But I'm still not there. It's getting there and occasionally I get glimpses of it and it feels fantastic but its still hard to repeat the next day. But it happens more often now and I believe I'm going in the right direction.

When I look at Paul Wilson's instruction it all seems to be in line with the above and I like his drills and I find his language concise and clear. We don't need more instruction ala do this with your hand on the backswing tuck in your elbow like that etc etc. It doesn't work. Thats for accomplished swingers when they try to tweak things. But you can't learn like that. It clogs up your head and you tie yourself a knot.

I think Paul Wilson teaches the right thing and he keeps it simple. So far I've only looked at his free videos but I'm seriously considering buying his book/dvd.

FWIW

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