Noticing more PGA players are Stack & Tilt-ish

[sean_miller]

When did Foley begin working with Stephen Ames? I do know that he worked with Ames when Ames was playing the best golf of his career. I think Ames' problem is a lack of strength and fitness. No I'm not sticking up for Foley because I think he's a tool. His idiotic comments in Score Golf magazine are enough for me to have made that assessment before his name was ever mentioned in the same sentence with Tiger Woods.

Anyway, I can't comment on whether Foley used 5% S&T or 55%, but I do know it's 100% hilarious that the great Tiger Woods felt the need to use old "9 an 8"'s swing coach to improve - I'm LOLing right now actually.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Let me explain to you how Sean Foley created the image you see before you on television, in magazines, and on the internet:

1) He learned directly from Mike and Andy the principles of the Stack and Tilt swing. He also studied their influences: The Golfing Machine, Mac O'Grady, Larry Bartosek, Tom Tomasello, and Mike Bender.

2) He took all this information -- which by the way is extremely powerful information, especially when compared with conventional instruction -- and clouded it with smoke and mirrors: big buzz words, cliches, life coaching tips, paraphrased misquotations, etc. He does this in an attempt to project himself as this swing whispering, enlightened, unique virtuoso of the golf swing. And people are eating that shit up.

That's personally why I dislike the guy.

In the end though, it was inevitable that one of Mike and Andy's students would end up doing this. This is something I think we'll see more and more of as the years go by: Instructors learning stack and tilt, stealing those ideas, not crediting them, and pawning it off as their own ideas.

It would have happened sooner, but Mike and Andy didn't really hit the instructional scene until the last few years.

"How much as Stack and Tilt influenced you, Sean?"

"Maybe five percent."

Sean, you ungrateful maggot....

PS- Props to Mike, Andy, Nick Clearwater, Dave, Erik, etc. for choosing not to go the Foley route with their careers. And I don't mean "start teaching PGA pros." I mean bastardizing Stack and Tilt the way Sean has.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

When did Foley begin working with Stephen Ames? I do know that he worked with Ames when Ames was playing the best golf of his career. I think Ames' problem is a lack of strength and fitness. No I'm not sticking up for Foley because I think he's a tool. His idiotic comments in Score Golf magazine are enough for me to have made that assessment before his name was ever mentioned in the same sentence with Tiger Woods.

Anyway, I can't comment on whether Foley used 5% S&T or 55%, but I do know it's 100% hilarious that the great Tiger Woods felt the need to use old "9 an 8"'s swing coach to improve - I'm LOLing right now actually.

Foley wasn't really on the PGA Tour much until 2007/2008. So around then, I think. Mike and Andy had been teaching S&T on Tour for a few years prior to the Golf Digest article, of course.

I think the 5% comment was stupid (why put a number on it?), but really couldn't care much less. I'm not the person who spent the time helping him, after all. :-P

---

Anyway... to get back to the point of this thread... more PGA Tour players are S&T-ish; now but that's not surprising. The mini-fad of "sway off the ball" has been dying for awhile.

Take a look at Jamie Lovemark's swing. Really nice stuff and from what I know he hasn't really worked with "S&T people" at all - he just does the stuff really well. But again, yes, as others said - S&T came about by studying what the best players had in common, so it's no surprise that everyone on the PGA Tour exhibits a good number of the pieces. Is that "number of pieces" going slightly higher lately? Perhaps so.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by iacas

P.S. I know folks want to react a bit like JetFan1983, but I have a hard time doing that. If one of the downsides to S&T; is a sort of "stigma" from the name, then I have a hard time blaming him for taking a sort of "easy way out" and just basically teaching S&T; but calling it "my own method" and not putting a name on it.

I hear you. Right or wrong, I feel it had to be said.

PS- My post is in no way an attack on westcyderydin. I'm just voicing my opinion after all just in case it gets misinterpreted that way by accident!

[westcyderydin]

I think the stigma with S and T comes from the name, like a lot of people say.  since it has a name that makes it like a team.  and a team has fans.  teams dont like other teams and fans dont like fans from other teams.  It makes people pick a side and that is just the nature of things.  i am a fan of golf...and the golf swing and like to follow what i find useful at the time.  Right now it seems like a quite of bit of that is S and T type of stuff but if i consider myself or my swing S and T then its like i am joining the team.  But on the other hand listening to things being said out there, take golf telecasts for example, or hank haney i definately do not find much use out of any of that crap.  So id have to say im closer to your side on that haha.

but back to the point of the thread yes i think more ppl are staying centered.  and i credit foley...maybe not for his original ideas, but for his mere presence on the scene and influence with what he has done with good players on tour.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

P.S. I know folks want to react a bit like JetFan1983, but I have a hard time doing that. If one of the downsides to S&T is a sort of "stigma" from the name, then I have a hard time blaming him for taking a sort of "easy way out" and just basically teaching S&T but calling it "my own method" and not putting a name on it.

I hear you. Right or wrong, I feel it had to be said.

PS- My post is in no way an attack on westcyderydin. I'm just voicing my opinion after all  just in case it gets misinterpreted that way by accident!

Patience grasshopper. Eventually after enough people see "that DVD" they'll wonder how did Foley get famous, then they'll look at the sources of his "knowledge". People who deserve credit will get it. Not from everyone, but that's life. There are probably people who think Isaac Newton invented gravity and Henry Ford invented the automobile. What does their opinion matter?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Patience grasshopper. Eventually after enough people see "that DVD" they'll wonder how did Foley get famous, then they'll look at the sources of his "knowledge". People who deserve credit will get it. Not from everyone, but that's life. There are probably people who think Isaac Newton invented gravity and Henry Ford invented the automobile. What does their opinion matter?

Don't be silly. Ford invented the color black. Everyone knows that. And Newton invented apples, which then invented the iPod.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

P.S. I know folks want to react a bit like JetFan1983, but I have a hard time doing that. If one of the downsides to S&T is a sort of "stigma" from the name, then I have a hard time blaming him for taking a sort of "easy way out" and just basically teaching S&T but calling it "my own method" and not putting a name on it.

I hear you. Right or wrong, I feel it had to be said.

PS- My post is in no way an attack on westcyderydin. I'm just voicing my opinion after all  just in case it gets misinterpreted that way by accident!

Patience grasshopper. Eventually after enough people see "that DVD" they'll wonder how did Foley get famous, then they'll look at the sources of his "knowledge". People who deserve credit will get it. Not from everyone, but that's life. There are probably people who think Isaac Newton invented gravity and Henry Ford invented the automobile. What does their opinion matter?

It doesn't, but I just take offense for the lack of respect given. This all could have been avoided by just saying something like "Mike and Andy? They've been a huge influence me, no question. I do believe however that I do my own thing out there, but I'd be kidding myself if I didn't acknowledge how much they've helped accelerate my understanding of the swing. It really is unfortunate more folks out there don't take a second look at what those two guys are teaching because I think the point's been missed too often since they've hit the main stream, etc, etc."

Plus there are just so many times where he intentionally puts on this charade that I have a problem with.

And by now I'm probably way off topic.

[TXjammer]

"It doesn't, but I just take offense for the lack of respect given. This all could have been avoided by just saying something like "Mike and Andy? They've been a huge influence me, no question. I do believe however that I do my own thing out there, but I'd be kidding myself if I didn't acknowledge how much they've helped accelerate my understanding of the swing."

Well said.  And by the way......I'M STACKED!!!!!!!    I really did switch...and just HAD to say that.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by westcyderydin

I think the stigma with S and T comes from the name, like a lot of people say.  since it has a name that makes it like a team.  and a team has fans.  teams dont like other teams and fans dont like fans from other teams.  It makes people pick a side and that is just the nature of things.  i am a fan of golf...and the golf swing and like to follow what i find useful at the time.  Right now it seems like a quite of bit of that is S and T type of stuff but if i consider myself or my swing S and T then its like i am joining the team.  But on the other hand listening to things being said out there, take golf telecasts for example, or hank haney i definately do not find much use out of any of that crap.  So id have to say im closer to your side on that haha.

I think this is a pretty insightful commentary.

[Stretch]

I don't know about "more PGA players" but there was this one guy out at Torrey lookin' pretty stacked.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Stretch

I don't know about "more PGA players" but there was this one guy out at Torrey lookin' pretty stacked.

Great image. Right knee less flexed, shoulders steeper, hands on his shoulder plane, right elbow down at his rib cage, belt on its inclined plane...

Here's another from Dave (he's in San Diego for a few days):

[colin007]

dead sexy.

[Stretch]

Those are absolutely textbook, aren't they? Now lets hope he can win with it.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Those are absolutely textbook, aren't they? Now lets hope he can win with it.

No kidding - 5% my . . . hat.  The S&T guys must get a chill (in a good way) seeing those pics. I know I sure would.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

No kidding - 5% my . . . hat.  The S&T guys must get a chill (in a good way) seeing those pics. I know I sure would.

I'm happy to see it, but that's largely because I think it's what Tiger needed to do to get his game back in shape. Though being just -1 through nine on the easier course isn't so hot. :-)

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

No kidding - 5% my . . . hat.  The S&T guys must get a chill (in a good way) seeing those pics. I know I sure would.

I'm happy to see it, but that's largely because I think it's what Tiger needed to do to get his game back in shape. Though being just -1 through nine on the easier course isn't so hot. :-)

Baby steps. Baby steps. Next phase in the reconstruction - the grip!

[walk18]

Originally Posted by Stretch

I don't know about "more PGA players" but there was this one guy out at Torrey lookin' pretty stacked.

How does he get those shoulders so steep? That's difficult to do at least for me, and I'm pretty flexible.

[Old1964]

Hats off to you iacas - I appreciate your restraint as it can't be easy reading posts about S&T that are mere opinions based on casual criticisms and filled with obvious misunderstandings.

I just don't get it. All one has to do is go to the public library and request the book. You don't even have to purchase it. If your local library doesn't have it on the shelf, they can get it for you from another library.

My point is simple:  why post about S&T if you don't understand it?