Martin Hall on "The Spine Angle"

[iacas]

First, thanks to Martin Hall for finally touching on this and doing his part to dispel the notion that we want to "keep our spine angle constant." The golfers who keep their spine angle most constant are the Mr. and Mrs. Havercamps of the world - lots of head movement, very little speed... poor contact.

This video remains © 2011 Golf Channel and is used here for educational purposes. I'm looking forward to more episodes of "School of Golf" because, as a TGM guy, Martin Hall is bound to know a little more than the host of the "other" instructional show on Golf Channel.

Here's the video:

What's he talking about? Same stuff as this:

Some illustrations, as promised:

As Martin says at the end: "So if you're trying to keep your spine angle constant you're doing yourself a disservice. There's some tilt if you turn and some tilt as you unturn. So spine angle constant? Nnn nnnnnnnnn."

Thanks again, Martin.

[canadianpro]

Slowly but surely, the word is spreading!

[mvmac]

makes sense to me!

[sean_miller]

When I've read about spine angle (rarely), I always thought they meant the posture related spine angle - the one you'd see from the DTL view.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

When I've read about spine angle (rarely), I always thought they meant the posture related spine angle - the one you'd see from the DTL view.

That has always been my interpretation of "spine angle", and what they commonly mean when folks say to "stay in your spine angle", it's from the down the line view.  Others have redefined it, I don't know why except to maybe confuse us?

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

When I've read about spine angle (rarely), I always thought they meant the posture related spine angle - the one you'd see from the DTL view.

That has always been my interpretation of "spine angle", and what they commonly mean when folks say to "stay in your spine angle", it's from the down the line view.  Others have redefined it, I don't know why except to maybe confuse us?

Or possibly to try and be less confusing? Most reasonable people would interpret "spine angle" as meaning the actual angle of the spine, which in fact changes considerably from flexion to extension through the swing. On the other hand, the golfer's overall inclination (or, sorry, tilt) relative to the ground is what remains relatively constant (hopefully), as demonstrated above.

[Chicago Lefty]

According to the Plane Truth, Jim Hardy prefers to see a one planer lower his spine angle on the downswing.  However, the spine angle should never raise.

[canadianpro]

Most players don't realize how "straight or extended" the spine angle is at P4 and that they are side tilting in order to basically have their belt buckle being the farthest point fdrom the target at the top of the backswing. The more they understand that, the better they use the extension.

[Harmonious]

@Stretch: Gee, I always thought I was a reasonable guy. Here's a quote from an article by Bob Doyle (link: http://ezinearticles.com/?Maintain-Spine-Angle---All-You-Want-to-Know-About-the-Golf-Spine-Angle-and-How-to-Get-a-Feel-For-It&id;=2592991 )

"Depending on which analyst you listen to, there are actually two golf spine angles. The first is the most commonly discussed and is best seen by looking at the right side of the golfer (for a right handed golfer), and down the target line.  Imagine a straight vertical line extending from the back of the golfer's shoe, up through the hips and as high as the head.  Now imagine the straight line made by the golfer's spine, from the neck to the base of the spine and intersecting the vertical line.  The angle made at that intersection is the spine angl e... The angle will be unique for each golfer depending on build, physique, and posture at address but the average for most golfers will be about 30 degrees.  Note it is said that there is a straight line from the neck to the base of the spine.  The back or the spine is not to be hunched......it must be straight.

The second spine angle, which has been recently introduced by some analysts, can best be seen by looking at the front of the golfer.  In this view, the line of sight is perpendicular to the target line and 90 degrees from the view of the first and more conventional angle mentioned in the previous paragraph.  Here imagine a vertical line extending upward and starting at the base of the spine.  For most golfers with the proper address, the head and therefore the spine are tilted slightly to the right-handed golfer's right.  Now imagine a straight line from the base of the golfer's spine, extending up and through the center of the golfer's head.  This angle may best be referred to as the frontal spine angle... This angle also will be unique and will depend on the golfer's build and physique.  But it will also vary during a proper swing, being greater at impact than it was at address."

[sean_miller]

Ditto. To me the "tilt" is the tilt and the posture at address is the spine angle. Guess I'm old school.

Quote:

@Stretch: Gee, I always thought I was a reasonable guy.

[cbrian]

Keeping your inclination to the ground the same requires the "spine angle" to change. Thats probably the best reason for making the distinction.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by cbrian

Keeping your inclination to the ground the same requires the "spine angle" to change. Thats probably the best reason for making the distinction.

If that helps some students, then rock on!

[Zeph]

The only way to bend forward without tilting left or right is by bowing. If you stand straight up and bend to the left, the spine angle changes. That's the thing about the spine (or vertebral column), it is not a two-by-four. It is made up of many vertebrae and intervertebral discs. This give us the ability to rotate and bend it in any direction. We can bend forward without bending the upper parts of the spine, which usually is referred to as keeping the spine angle straight. Though that also is wrong. Only time the spine is "straight" is when standing straight up. Even then it is curved, which it is supposed to be. Nobody is playing golf with a straight spine angle, at least not without a big medical handicap. The spine rotates and bends in every direction during a golf swing. As long as the shoulders are not aligned parallell with the hips, the spine is rotated, if you bend forward while the spine is rotated 90º to the right, well of course the spine is rotated and tilted to the left. [img]http://blog.bioethics.net/spine.gif[/img] If you stand up straight, rotate the upper body 90º to the right, then lower the left shoulder towards your toes, what happens? You are in the backswing position of a golf swing. If you stand up, rotate the upper body to the left and lower the right shoulder towards your toes, what happens? You are in the follow through position of a golf swing. The only way to rotate the club back without bending the spine sideways is to rotate the whole body to the right, but then it wouldn't be a golf swing anymore. Some people try to maintain the spine angle by moving the upper body back, but you are still bending sideways. Inclination to the ground is important to know about. It has wrongly been called spine angle for a long time, but thanks to Mike, Andy, Martin and anyone else who has grasped this fact, times are a changin'. Look at the pictures Erik posted, you can't call a curved line straight.

[iacas]

Yeah, look, I wouldn't care about the term "spine angle" or any of the lines Peter Kostis draws if I didn't see it negatively affecting so many golfers.

Too many golfers hear "spine angle" or "maintain your posture" and quite literally do that - they "maintain their spine angle" or "maintain their posture" and they look like the aforementioned Mr. and Mrs. Havercamp, with their head going way back on the backswing and way forward on the follow-through.

If no golfers do that, you could call the spine angle "Bob" for all I care... but to far too many golfers, they hear "maintain your spine angle" and literally maintain their spine angle... and that's not good.

Off-topic stuff in the spoiler:

Also, the "side bend" or "tilt" that Martin is talking about is where "Stack and Tilt" gets the "tilt" part of its name. Again, it's not as "radical" as some think, but this is in a spoiler because I don't really want to talk about that much in this thread. Every golf swing involves some "side bending."

The day before our recent school in Phoenix, AZ we taught a guy who had almost no "side bend." He was a larger, older guy who thought he wasn't very flexible. He'd turn his hips about 30 degrees and his shoulders about 60, very flat. He had almost no side bend (but he came out of his spine angle really well - so his head stayed relatively centered, it just lifted up a little).

Anyway, we showed him quickly how the old advice about "turn your shoulder under your chin" is lame and how he simply had to "side bend" (to continue to use Martin's term) more during his backswing. That would let his left shoulder move downward more, and thus give him more room under his chin.

So the guy takes a few practice swings, and instantly with the same hip turn he's getting awfully close to 90 degrees with his shoulder turn and his head is staying pretty level instead of popping up.

The guy thanks us and walks six or seven stations away to finish his bucket of balls and after four swings he yells out to the whole range "Holy cow this really works!" Two swings later he yells out even louder "I can see the golf ball! For the first time in 30 years, I can see the golf ball my whole swing!"

He saw us three days later and shook our hands and was grinning like a fool. He was playing really well, was still happy to see the golf ball, and couldn't thank us enough.

That's the difference "side bending" made to this guy.

[Missouri Swede]

Originally Posted by iacas

Anyway, we showed him quickly how the old advice about "turn your shoulder under your chin" is lame and how he simply had to "side bend" (to continue to use Martin's term) more during his backswing. That would let his left shoulder move downward more, and thus give him more room under his chin.

I thought's what "turning your shoulder under your chin" meant. Maybe I'm not understanding how the "Havercamp" incorrect swing looks. (Is it the error Martin Hall was demonstrating when he moved off the ball so much on the backswing?) But then he wasn't getting his shoulder under his chin...

I'm not trying to be cheeky (pun intended). Just trying to understand the error ('cause I've probably either done it or am still doing it) and the correction.

Does the correct swing cause the swing to go a bit more vertical?

Thanks.

[colin007]

have you seen Caddyshack?  there are two characters in it names Mr and Mrs Havercamp.  watch them and youll see what iacas means by spine angle, head movement, and inefficiency.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Missouri Swede

I thought's what "turning your shoulder under your chin" meant. Maybe I'm not understanding how the "Havercamp" incorrect swing looks. (Is it the error Martin Hall was demonstrating when he moved off the ball so much on the backswing?) But then he wasn't getting his shoulder under his chin...

Yeah, that's what he demonstrated.

The problem with "turn your shoulder under your chin" is that people don't do that properly. They lift their head up so they have room to laterally move their shoulder, they don't make their shoulder go down. Perhaps they think too much about "chin, shoulder" and not just "shoulder down" or something... Anyway, I probably could have worded it better, as I was trying to say that the old advice about "keep your chin up so you can turn your shoulder under it" was the bad advice, and that you can turn your shoulder under your chin if you simply side tilt more, even if your chin is down.

Originally Posted by Missouri Swede

Does the correct swing cause the swing to go a bit more vertical?

The shoulders will be steeper. It's related to the actual club/arm path, but not directly.

[The_Pharaoh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missouri Swede

Does the correct swing cause the swing to go a bit more vertical?

The shoulders will be steeper. It's related to the actual club/arm path, but not directly.

This is the area I've most struggled with and all because I tried to change my natural shot shape from a fade to a draw in search of more distance. I believed by turning my shoulders more, I'd swing the club more around my body, flatten my swing, hit more from the inside and start hitting a powerful draw. WRONG! Unfortunately, this overturning of my shoulders caused me to take the club too far inside and then have to lift the club up in order to get any width in my swing. This move actually caused me to have too vertical a backswing (think Hoch) resulting in an over-the-top move and weak cuts instead of the powerful draws I craved.

Thanks to S&T;, I am now initiating my backswing by moving my left shoulder down/right shoulder up. This allows my arms to swing up quicker and not get trapped behind my body. The feeling is I am swinging more upright but in fact I've flattened my backswing as I no longer need to lift my arms up.

Erik hits the nail on the head above when he mentions people lift their heads to turn their shoulders. I was doing this to the point I couldn't maintain my inclination to the ground! As you can imagine, I was hitting the ball so poorly I was losing distance and direction.