Hitting Up or Down with the Driver in an Inline Pattern

[david_wedzik]

Originally Posted by uttexas

The longest drivers on the PGA tour hit up on the ball with the driver with fades (JB and Bubba)  Good info and illustrations on hitting up on the ball with the driver.  Mvmac touched on it earlier; could someone please discuss maintaining flying wedge and pressure point #3 trailing forefinger on grip with no forward shaft lean at impact (if hitting up on the ball)?  I've read Clampett's Impact Zone a few times; he'd say that there will be loss of accuracy if hitting up on the ball due to more difficulty maintaining shaft plane with initial target line at impact.

Good question for sure and we're definitely not saying to throw out the wedge and flip it to do this (and I know that's not what you meant...just clarifying for everyone).  Basically we will be hitting the ball at low point or just after...and as long as PP3 and the flying wedge are "maintained" the left arm and shaft will be inline (at worst) at impact.  This will not have any accuracy implications.

Dave

[iacas]

Originally Posted by saevel25

But for Charlie, how can he get to that +5, that might mean teeing the ball up past his front foot, so it might not be feasable.

How do you determine your own angle of attack if you don't have a camera, or is a camera pretty much required?

Charlie's on the PGA Tour. They average -1.3 degrees angle of attack. We're not worried about Charlie - I said we're planning to make this modification to the pattern or thought process for our students.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by iacas

Charlie's on the PGA Tour. They average -1.3 degrees angle of attack. We're not worried about Charlie - I said we're planning to make this modification to the pattern or thought process for our students.

This thread is less than timely. I had a driver fitting recently with a good clubmaker and my AoA came out at -1.0 degrees. I was all, like, sweet I'm practically a friggin' pro! And then you go move the damn goalposts.

On the other hand, I was at the fitter primarily because I've been hitting it too low off the tee, so I've decided to hear you out.

[laxbballgolf]

Is there such thing as too low of a spin rate with the driver?  Maybe there is theoretically, but does it ever really happen?  I'm asking this because it seems to me that spin rate is the only thing this adjustment would improve.  If the two things to improve are launch angle and spin rate, couldn't launch angle be fixed just by using a driver with a different loft?

Also, as a push draw player myself, I think for me to be comfortable making this change I would have to accompany it with a leftward adjustment to my alignment, as well, just to provide a little breathing room to make sure the shot actually fades - to make sure I don't get caught in no man's land not sure whether my shot is going to draw or fade.  Just my 2 cents agreeing with what Iacas mentioned in the first post.

Anyone have more specific or detailed data on how much difference an upward vs downward strike makes to spin rate, distance, etc?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by laxbballgolf

Is there such thing as too low of a spin rate with the driver? Maybe there is theoretically, but does it ever really happen? I'm asking this because it seems to me that spin rate is the only thing this adjustment would improve.

Yes, there is, but it's most prevalent among guys who have fairly slow swing speeds.

[david_wedzik]

Originally Posted by Stretch

This thread is less than timely. I had a driver fitting recently with a good clubmaker and my AoA came out at -1.0 degrees. I was all, like, sweet I'm practically a friggin' pro! And then you go move the damn goalposts.

On the other hand, I was at the fitter primarily because I've been hitting it too low off the tee, so I've decided to hear you out.

Here's the great part though Stretch...all else the same if you move the ball just slightly forward you will, theoretically, be more like +1.0 and BINGO you'll likely launch it at the better height as well.

Dave

[mvmac]

What about for a player that already loses the wedge?  Would they then set-up to hit it before the tangent to hit a straight cut?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mvmac

What about for a player that already loses the wedge?  Would they then set-up to hit it before the tangent to hit a straight cut?

They would continue to work on improving their swing.

I don't want to say we're talking in the theoretical here at all, because we're going to put this into practice (or, rather, into instruction) immediately, but for the player who loses the wedge then they're already doing things which might give them better launch conditions (with just the driver) so we'd be aware of their ball position as they improved their RFW, because while flipping might let them fake a positive angle of attack that's all it is in the end - faked - and they can continue to improve and to do this the proper way.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by mvmac

What about for a player that already loses the wedge?  Would they then set-up to hit it before the tangent to hit a straight cut?

I would suggest trying to not lose the wedge.

On account of snow and winter, I haven't been able to hit balls outside for some time, but playing this shot on the simulator works like a charm. I've had a problem with having to slow down to keep control of the shot. Now I try to keep the driving pressure all the way through and past impact, and I'm hitting it really well. Ball starts straight and curves slightly left to right. With the driver being one of my worse clubs, I'm excited at trying this out in the real world. The swing feels very comfortable, especially when knowing the geometry and dynamics that make up this shot, credit to the Charles Darwin of golf. 0 to 1,5 degrees is not much, the angles that make up a good shot are narrow, but knowing what you want to do really helps on my confidence.

At at point some months ago I started flipping even more to get the ball launching higher and trying to get more speed. Now I'm hitting it longer than ever and with very good accuracy. Some shots go straight and some fade a bit too much, but when aiming off the left side of the fairway, neither is a big issue.

[AndrewPI]

I have been working a lot recently on maintaining the flying wedge alongside keeping the pressure with PP3. During my last few rounds my drives where I feel I have done this have gone pretty straight but with a lower ball flight than I am used to. Is this likely to be down to me previously flipping at the ball hence faking a higher angle of attack as mentioned?

Therefore would moving the ball forward in the stance a bit more give a better launch angle?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by AndrewPI

I have been working a lot recently on maintaining the flying wedge alongside keeping the pressure with PP3. During my last few rounds my drives where I feel I have done this have gone pretty straight but with a lower ball flight than I am used to. Is this likely to be down to me previously flipping at the ball hence faking a higher angle of attack as mentioned?

Therefore would moving the ball forward in the stance a bit more give a better launch angle?

Also important to make sure the hips are forward with the flying wedge.

[Zeph]

Don't know your ball position today, but if your ball flight has gotten lower since you started working on the wedges through pressure points, I'm pretty sure moving it inside your left foot would help. Did for me anyways.

A slightly related question: Some people play the ball off the left heel with irons too, how would that combine with this kind of driver setup? You would need to hit down on one ball with a long iron, and level/up with the driver. Would the wider stance, which moves the left shoulder slightly back of the ball position, be enough to make the difference? I don't play irons that far forward myself, just curious.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Zeph

A slightly related question: Some people play the ball off the left heel with irons too, how would that combine with this kind of driver setup? You would need to hit down on one ball with a long iron, and level/up with the driver. Would the wider stance, which moves the left shoulder slightly back of the ball position, be enough to make the difference? I don't play irons that far forward myself, just curious.

Well, three things...

1. That person might very well move their upper center forward on some of their iron swings. Into your left heel is close to low point.
2. If they only do it for long irons, remember long irons don't have a very steep angle of attack. They are closer to low point.
3. I'm not a big fan of a super-wide driver stance. A little wider, but not much.

[mchepp]

Wow, what a great thread here. One of the best explanations of CP and CF releases on the web. Excellent.

I do have some concerns over telling someone you are going to teach them a push-fade. The push-fade drive has haunted me and almost forced me to give up the game. I know in the context of your explanation you are right, but I am just thinking of the average guy who doesn't understand the detail as you guys do.

Also I would be interested to know the number of amateurs who hold the wedge with the driver. Do the majority of your students hold the wedge well with the driver?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

Wow, what a great thread here. One of the best explanations of CP and CF releases on the web. Excellent.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by mchepp

I do have some concerns over telling someone you are going to teach them a push-fade. The push-fade drive has haunted me and almost forced me to give up the game. I know in the context of your explanation you are right, but I am just thinking of the average guy who doesn't understand the detail as you guys do.

The average guy doesn't necessarily need to know what we're asking him to do. I mean, what it's called or anything. We'll just tell him that because he's going to catch the ball on the upswing, that's a fade... and we may not even tell him that.

Originally Posted by mchepp

Also I would be interested to know the number of amateurs who hold the wedge with the driver. Do the majority of your students hold the wedge well with the driver?

Not many do. The better ones almost all do, the higher handicappers almost none do. But the ball being an inch or two forward isn't going to change that at all... :-)

[mchepp]

Okay, fair points. I have some additional questions.

Originally Mr. Bennett said that we should play the driver two balls inside the left heel. What is your recommendation? I get that every player will be slightly different, but the recommendation is off the left toe?

Also the advice has been to slightly open the face of the club at address to accommodate the ball starting out to the right to then draw back. Is the recommendation now a square face for the driver? Slightly closed?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mchepp

Originally Mr. Bennett said that we should play the driver two balls inside the left heel. What is your recommendation? I get that every player will be slightly different, but the recommendation is off the left toe?

Front of the left instep. And this isn't something we've discussed with Mike or Andy (yet). They teach PGA Tour players (except for their weekly clinics, which focus primarily on improving the swing as a whole), we teach amateur golfers.

Originally Posted by mchepp

Also the advice has been to slightly open the face of the club at address to accommodate the ball starting out to the right to then draw back. Is the recommendation now a square face for the driver? Slightly closed?

Square to slightly open. A clubhead ascending two degree is only going to have a path that's a degree left... so if the clubface is open a degree or two that will guarantee a fade. We don't want to get into a situation where people are hitting pulls or straight balls - too easy to get into a two-way miss type situation. Aim left, leave the clubface open just a tad, and be confident that you'll get a tight fade if you swing well enough.

[ControlJunkie]

Originally Posted by iacas

No need for that - you can still pre-set the hips a little farther forward, your chest can still be roughly in the center of your stance, the ball can be inside your left toes and near or just forward of your left heel (your left arch, roughly), and you can push the hips forward, keep the head stable, catch the ball on a +1 or +2 degree upswing, achieve great launch conditions, and play a nice tight fade with the driver.

If you want to hit a draw, by all means, move the ball back to Charlie's position.

Does anything change if you want to change trajectory up or down (to combat wind, or whatever else), or for that matter hit a high cut, low draw, or vice-versa? I'm still trying to take all of this in, so forgive me if it's a dumb question.

Seems like going back to the position Charlie has the ball in will at least favor a lower ball flight compared to moving the ball slightly forward which favor the higher shot, but if I'm thinking about it correctly, it's still possible to go lower with the forward position, it's just a matter of de-lofting the driver a bit (handle slightly forward). Am I way off there?

And sorry, just trying to talk through all this so I can understand it better. I think there's a good chance where it's one of those things I "think" I'm doing as opposed to what I'm really doing when I try to change the vertical trajectory.

P.S.: I also realize going lower isn't really going to maximize distance, which was part of the entire premise, like I said, just trying to think through it all and take it all in.

Thanks for the all the quality posts (such as this one)!