Hitting a ball off the wrong green?

[oberscrc]

Originally Posted by B-Con

Why would you have to take a divot when chipping on the green (when it's your own green, obviously)? I know that a proper chip should take a divot, but you don't have to hit the ball that far if your on the green. Just open up your club and let the bounce on it slide along the green surface. If you can pitch 40 yards without taking a divot, surely you can pitch 20 feet without taking a divot.

I'm obviously not advocating that you hit a shot against your conscience that you think will damage the green, but I don't see why the option is either "divot" or "terrible putt". There should be some situations solvable by "soft pitch".

Can't you just pick up the ball and throw it over the obstacle.  No divot and closer to the hole...it's a win-win.

[Double Bogey]

Sergio Garcia did it at the Master in 2009 on hole 5.  Took a nice chunk out of the front portion of the green.  The next day, you could not even tell... at least from the patrons point of view

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Double Bogey

Sergio Garcia did it at the Master in 2009 on hole 5.  Took a nice chunk out of the front portion of the green.  The next day, you could not even tell... at least from the patrons point of view

I'm sure they just transplant in some spare turf, more or less like they replace a hole plug.  If you look close you could probably see the seams, but they must be magic with that sort of thing.

[B-Con]

I don't agree. A pitch shot in my book is one where you use the bounce on the club to get the ball airborne. The bounce hits the ground first, a bit behind the ball, then glides forward and under the ball, sending it up. Doing this, you can hit a pitch shot on a green without making a mark. On a chip shot you hit the ball first and on the way down, which makes the chance for taking a small divot greater. You can still hit a semi chip/pitch shot where you pick it cleanly.

I agree with your statement. In my post that you replied to I used "chip" in the first sentence and "pitch" in the last one -- inconsistent vocabulary. But I was clearly thinking about the act of using the bounce on the club and should have used consistent vocabulary, eg, Utley's definition of "pitching". I think that you should be able to pitch on the green without damaging it.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by B-Con

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeph

I don't agree. A pitch shot in my book is one where you use the bounce on the club to get the ball airborne. The bounce hits the ground first, a bit behind the ball, then glides forward and under the ball, sending it up. Doing this, you can hit a pitch shot on a green without making a mark. On a chip shot you hit the ball first and on the way down, which makes the chance for taking a small divot greater. You can still hit a semi chip/pitch shot where you pick it cleanly.

I agree with your statement. In my post that you replied to I used "chip" in the first sentence and "pitch" in the last one -- inconsistent vocabulary. But I was clearly thinking about the act of using the bounce on the club and should have used consistent vocabulary, eg, Utley's definition of "pitching". I think that you should be able to pitch on the green without damaging it.

No matter whether you call it a chip or a pitch, the typical average golfer has no business even trying it. If he tries to pick it clean, the odds are he will skull it, if he plays a normal chip, he'll dig a hole.  Either way he's better advised to just putt around the obstacle.

I only pray that the average players who play on my home course never see or take your advice seriously.  I prefer the greens as they are, without holes.

[B-Con]

No matter whether you call it a chip or a pitch, the typical average golfer has no business even trying it. If he tries to pick it clean, the odds are he will skull it, if he plays a normal chip, he'll dig a hole.  Either way he's better advised to just putt around the obstacle.

I only pray that the average players who play on my home course never see or take your advice seriously.  I prefer the greens as they are, without holes.

The average golfer shouldn't bother trying, they aren't that desperate to shave an extra stroke off their score -- assuming they have reasonable expectation of being able to benefit. :-P But I think a golfer with a decent short wedge game shouldn't feel as if this option is completely out of the question.

[BonoVox]

I know the local rule at Rivera for the members is to putt around it. PGA Tour they can ship when there.

[ohiolefty]

Seeing some of the descriptions of how the ball should be contacted on a chip or pitch made me cringe as badly as seeing someone pitch or chip off a green...lol

Anyway...This happens all the time at my home course. It's old (designed in the 1920's) and the way it sets up, for lefties hitting a draw or righties hitting a cut, the 17th green is definitely within the realm of possibility when you hit your tee shot at 11. 80 years ago, when most golfers didn't hit the ball very far, it probably wasn't an issue. Today, it defiinitely is. I've hit at LEAST a half dozen tee shots from 11 that either landed on the 17th green or came to rest on it. It freaks me out when I'm putting on 17 too; this is not an easy green, either. When I hit balls on that green, I take relief per the rules...I usually end up in a fairway lie in a chipping area near the 17th....but then I have tree trouble and have to hit some tremendous hero cut to put it on the 11th green or I have to take a SW and put in in the middle of the 11th fairway and then try to hit a pitch and get up and down.

[senorchipotle]

moral of story for any course architects who might be lurking: don't create greens which would entice players to hit a more efficient shot to the hole by taking out a club other than a putter. gimmicks such as dogleg greens and sandtraps in the middle of greens are really, really stupid. here's looking at you greg norman.

[Zeph]

Phil Mickelson hit a flop/pitch shot on a green once with no fringe, rough or anything between him and the hole. He also hit one with rough in the way, leaving the flag in.

[Zwick]

Here's the video of Phil (last year's bmw championship, quality is bad), a putt would have been better i guess.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Phil Mickelson hit a flop/pitch shot on a green once with no fringe, rough or anything between him and the hole. He also hit one with rough in the way, leaving the flag in.

I can assure you that if he was on the putting surface, he wouldn't have left the flagstick in the hole.  It doesn't matter if he's putting or chipping - what matters is where the ball lies.  If he hits the flagstick, attended or unattended, after playing a stroke from the putting green, it's a 2 stroke penalty.  Phil knows petter than to risk that.

[Zeph]

I can assure you that if he was on the putting surface, he wouldn't have left the flagstick in the hole.  It doesn't matter if he's putting or chipping - what matters is where the ball lies.  If he hits the flagstick, attended or unattended, after playing a stroke from the putting green, it's a 2 stroke penalty.  Phil knows petter than to risk that.

Nope, the flag was in. The announcers said it might have been an action to tell the course designer what he thought about the green design. He was not aiming at the flag, so there was no big risk of it going in. I don't understand the point with designing a green so you need to hit the ball through rough to get to the hole. Or like that hole with a bunker in the middle of the green. It is called a Putting Green , because you are supposed to putt on it. Not having to hit sideways nowhere near the hole or pitch it over a bunker.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Zeph

I don't understand the point with designing a green so you need to hit the ball through rough to get to the hole. Or like that hole with a bunker in the middle of the green. It is called a Putting Green, because you are supposed to putt on it. Not having to hit sideways nowhere near the hole or pitch it over a bunker.

How about this idea: don't hit it there if you want to have an unimpeded putt at the hole...?

[Zeph]

Not everyone got the control to avoid placing the ball in the wrong spot all the time. :~( If I could, I'd be a scratch! :banana: It's like having a big wall in the middle of the fairway lifted two inches off the ground. If you are unfortunate enough to place the ball behind this wall, you will have to putt it under it.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I can assure you that if he was on the putting surface, he wouldn't have left the flagstick in the hole.  It doesn't matter if he's putting or chipping - what matters is where the ball lies.  If he hits the flagstick, attended or unattended, after playing a stroke from the putting green, it's a 2 stroke penalty.  Phil knows petter than to risk that.

Nope, the flag was in. The announcers said it might have been an action to tell the course designer what he thought about the green design. He was not aiming at the flag, so there was no big risk of it going in.

I don't understand the point with designing a green so you need to hit the ball through rough to get to the hole. Or like that hole with a bunker in the middle of the green. It is called a Putting Green, because you are supposed to putt on it. Not having to hit sideways nowhere near the hole or pitch it over a bunker.

I'd like to see the video.  Why would he chip it if he wasn't going for the hole?  The whole scenario just doesn't make any sense.

I've been in the situation where the break between my ball and the hole was such that I couldn't putt to the hole without aiming well off the green.  It happens.  You deal with it.

[B-Con]

Originally Posted by Zwick

Here's the video of Phil (last year's bmw championship, quality is bad), a putt would have been better i guess.

He took a divot there and completely missed the hole. Why did he need a wedge there?

Here's where he chipped in using a wedge on the green for a good reason: Hail.

[Zeph]

I'd like to see the video.  Why would he chip it if he wasn't going for the hole?  The whole scenario just doesn't make any sense.

You're right, it was a putt, I got things mixed up. He did leave the flag in though. It was 18 on Quail Hollow. [quote] Q. Why did you have Bones leave the flag in for that first putt? You scared me. PHIL MICKELSON: There was no way to get the ball anywhere near the hole, so I had to play 10 feet to the right and just try to get it about pin high, and I felt the pin would help me with depth perception, which it did. I ended up getting it down there as close as possible. For as beautifully designed as this golf course is tee to green, the greens are by far the worst designed greens we play on TOUR. Even though they're in immaculate shape, I would say that 18 would be the worst green that we have on TOUR, except that it's not even the worst on this golf course; 12 is.[/quote] http://www.pgatour.com/2010/tournaments/r480/05/01/transcript-mickelson/index.html