The Dan Plan - 10,000 Hours to Become a Pro Golfer (Dan McLaughlin)

[Shorty]

Bottom line is that most people don't know anything about golf.

This is how it all pans out:

1) Anyone on this site could tell before he even hit a ball that he had no hope of becoming a professional.

2) People who know nothing about golf will think that he almost made it but was thwarted by injury.

3) He will claim to have got down to 2, will not contradict or correct interviewers who think he got to "near scratch".

4) Non golfers think that that makes him close to pro standard.

5) They will believe his BS and he will make money doing inspirational talks to morons who think that anything is possible and are told so by adults who should know better.

6) He will claim that the improvement curve was basically stopped by the injury.

7) He will not mention that he plateaued at the level that a reasonably talented and committed beginner would be at after a few years anyway.

8) The myth will persist that his handicap is 6 shots less than it really would be.

9) People who say that he was light years from his goal will be called "haters".

As it is, you'll notice that his website is essentially devoted to the amount of media he attracts.

[Lihu]

[quote name="RandallT" url="/t/45853/the-dan-plan-10-000-hours-to-become-a-pro-golfer-dan-mclaughlin/3480#post_1201795"] you see Anders Ericsson avoid the question about whether Dan would make his goal (saying that's the wrong question).

I actually think it's the first half of the right question. If Ericsson's reseach says anyone and everyone can reach 'mastery' in any given field given the correct training it shouldn't matter who the subject is, his answer should basically be yes as long as the training is right. The second half of the question would obviously be "Is Dan's training right?" [quote name="Lihu" url="/t/45853/the-dan-plan-10-000-hours-to-become-a-pro-golfer-dan-mclaughlin/3480#post_1201938"][QUOTE name="flopster" url="/t/45853/the-dan-plan-10-000-hours-to-become-a-pro-golfer-dan-mclaughlin/3474#post_1201933"]   Undoubtedly a larger sample size of participants is needed to really get a good idea of talent versus hard work, Dan IMO was a below average talent sample, there are too many out there that many of us have seen that if they were to dedicate themselves at a similar plan I believe they could achieve much more. [/QUOTE] No, start with the group of golfers using LSW, then look for those with talent. :-)   [/quote] Ok, but what we're really saying (I agree with you if this is your view) is that talent in some form is important in the equation. My understanding is that Ericsson was saying it wasn't.[/quote] What Ericsson seemed to be suggesting is that very young children would gain talent through a minimum of 10 years of deliberate practice. I don't think he means someone like Dan's age? Although, we both agree that talent factors in with older people. http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/EricssonDeliberatePracticePR93.PDF I suppose this could be possible IF you could keep a kid that young interested in a particular activity. Interesting that I watched 42 of my kids classmates from when they were kindergarteners until now as juniors in high school. Many kids started off doing different activities, but most stopped. One kid is a golfer who spent roughly 8 hours a day playing/practicing golf. He's about scratch now, but have no idea if he can become pro level? One other kid did gymnastics, and is currently participating in national level events, and she also trained a lot every day. The other kids might have had the same talent, but just didn't have the personal drive to excel. They lost interest. Was it talent that kept the two kids interested? BTW, @Williamevanl called it. Dan was too old because he didn't start off with any talent in golf. If I were at my current playing level when we posted those comments 3 years ago, I would have completely agreed with him. The better I get at golf the more I realize that it takes way more than I originally thought. I never though it would have taken this much effort even just to get where I am now.

[newtogolf]

Bottom line is that most people don't know anything about golf.

This is how it all pans out:

1) Anyone on this site could tell before he even hit a ball that he had no hope of becoming a professional.

2) People who know nothing about golf will think that he almost made it but was thwarted by injury.

3) He will claim to have got down to 2, will not contradict or correct interviewers who think he got to "near scratch".

4) Non golfers think that that makes him close to pro standard.

5) They will believe his BS and he will make money doing inspirational talks to morons who think that anything is possible and are told so by adults who should know better.

6) He will claim that the improvement curve was basically stopped by the injury.

7) He will not mention that he plateaued at the level that a reasonably talented and committed beginner would be at after a few years anyway.

8) The myth will persist that his handicap is 6 shots less than it really would be.

9) People who say that he was light years from his goal will be called "haters".

As it is, you'll notice that his website is essentially devoted to the amount of media he attracts.

I agree with every point, the "work hard and you can become anything you want to be" is an old fallacy that seems to be reinvigorated by the same people who believe every kid deserves a participation trophy.   Dan has learned a hard lesson in the process of gaining some fame and new toys to play with, talent > hard work.

I didn't agree with his plan from day 1.  Putting is a completely different skill than a full swing.  My daughter beats her boyfriend in mini-golf every time but he can hit his 7i 150 yards and she can't get it past 30 yards.  All that time he spent putting, chipping and pitching was time lost to conditioning his body for the full swing.

I also question his handicap given how much higher he scored in tournaments.  I think it got as low as it did through a combination of Dan selectively posting scores and the fact he played on one course the majority of the time.  I would bet he never was below a 6 if someone other than Dan was tracking his rounds.

Dan created the perfect exit for himself from the plan, he got bit by the injury bug and now the world will never know (we know better) if he could have reached his goal.   He will formerly announce he's ending the plan at some point, do a bunch of interviews to gain media and public sympathy while extending his 15 minutes of fame and then will be forgotten until the next "Dan Plan" starts up that gains the media attention.

[DrvFrShow]

30 years old and just starting out with this dream of being a touring pro? Not a chance. Becoming a 5 HC? Good chance.

Chances of success starting at 7 yrs old and dedicating yourself to it are less than 1%.

How many kids start playing baseball and dream of playing for the Yankees or some other team? How many actually end up doing it? Glory Days.

[natureboy]

Good call

Here's a question though - what happens if you constantly reassess and change up the plan as you go along? Say you start shallowing so you dramatically increase your driving distance, in effect shortening the course, start shallowing again so you integrate LSW into your course management, start shallowing again and so you go to a short game guru for help? Could you keep boosting the effectiveness of the plan at points along the way by looking at where you need to focus effort in order to repeatedly steepen the curve at those points? I think you probably can to an extent but you'll still plateau at some point when you hit your potential but that point will be lower than it looked like it would be at the beginning of the plan. I'm not sure that Dan really changed what he was doing that much along the way.

I think individual breakthroughs are definitely important and relevant in being able to shift the individual learning curve, which is rarely smooth. It may still be possible for Dan to make some leaps of progress. I think Dan did do things he thought would be helpful. Like most on this thread I would give him low marks for thorough research, however. If he wants to become an 'expert' golfer, he should know enough to filter out bad advice and find good advice. Good advice isn't always sufficient by itself - personal chemistry is important in selecting a coach and it would be very reasonable to not fully trust or commit to working with someone who didn't really believe in his goal. In that case, greater self-reliance as the expert is required. I think he's come up short so far here. But that shortcoming could also be seen as an opportunity.

I didn't agree with his plan from day 1.  Putting is a completely different skill than a full swing.  My daughter beats her boyfriend in mini-golf every time but he can hit his 7i 150 yards and she can't get it past 30 yards.  All that time he spent putting, chipping and pitching was time lost to conditioning his body for the full swing.

I agree. That was valuable lost time.

30 years old and just starting out with this dream of being a touring pro? Not a chance. Becoming a 5 HC? Good chance.

Chances of success starting at 7 yrs old and dedicating yourself to it are less than 1%.

How many kids start playing baseball and dream of playing for the Yankees or some other team? How many actually end up doing it? Glory Days.

Just to be fair, his goal was to make a cut at a PGA (or possibly pro) event. The dream was not to be a regular card-holding & keeping tour pro. I would agree that's a ridiculous goal as they are about as rare as people with 170 IQ's relative to the population of golfers in the U.S. There's also a big difference between 'pro' event fields for PGA, Web.com, & mini-tour pro tournaments. Any one of the golfers who regularly makes the cut for these events let alone wins counts as an 'outlier' in my book. So I would credit him with a 'success' if he was able to do that. I'd personally even count passing the PGA playing ability test. But there are clearly degrees of 'outlier' within a fairly large bin of 'outliers' relative to the general golfing population.

[Lihu]

30 years old and just starting out with this dream of being a touring pro? Not a chance. Becoming a 5 HC? Good chance.

Chances of success starting at 7 yrs old and dedicating yourself to it are less than 1%.

How many kids start playing baseball and dream of playing for the Yankees or some other team? How many actually end up doing it? Glory Days.

Yeah, not easy. 1% make it to scratch, then of those 1 in 1000? So, 0.001% chance?

BTW, not many kids these days dream about playing for the Yankees. . .

[Nosevi]

30 years old and just starting out with this dream of being a touring pro? Not a chance. Becoming a 5 HC? Good chance. Chances of success starting at 7 yrs old and dedicating yourself to it are less than 1%. How many kids start playing baseball and dream of playing for the Yankees or some other team? How many actually end up doing it? [URL=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vQpW9XRiyM]Glory Days.[/URL]

There's always a chance, however small. Before starting my own personal challenge (which was named by the moderators but is in effect to mix it on a 3rd tier tour (comfortably below Web.com) I spoke via email a couple of times to this guy: [video]http://youtu.be/Ge0grfUq3z8[/video] Mid 20s, only ever got down to a 7 handicap after years of playing socially - no chance, right? Only he did in fact make it and made it all the way to not only making the cut in a European tour event but winning one. Possibly more impressive is the fact that when this was recorded it was 10 years after he started but listen to the commentry - he was about to appear in the Irish Open (a Challenge Tour event so technically one step down from European Tour but still their national open) for the 9th time. He went from 7 handicapper to qualifying for what was then his national open and a Challenge Tour event in under 2 years. He gave me some cracking advice before I started. When people say what Dan tried to do is/was imposdible I disagree but I will agree he hasn't really given himself a halfway decent shot at it. You have to give yourself every advantage and work unbelievably hard. It's not impossible to get from where Dan is now to play on tour at a reasonably high level - it's been done before.

[Shorty]

It's not impossible to get from where Dan is now to play on tour at a reasonably high level - it's been done before.

It has never been done - and never will be done - by a person with little or no natural timing, athletic ability or capacity to learn from his own mistakes.

It has certainly never been done by a person who lies to himself the way Dan does.

[ZappyAd]

I didn't know anything about this guy until reading this thread but it raises the question what would a reasonable goal have been for his plan?  Was / is becoming a scratch player attainable for anyone with a lot of hard work?  Seems from the graphs that even that is quite a way off.  I'm all for aiming high so that even if you miss you still achieve something great (was that in a movie somewhere?) but at the moment it seems like all that work has got him to a level that a lot of other people are able to attain without dedicating themselves to that degree?

It does seem like there are some lessons to learn here about what and how to practice and maybe when not to practice that could help the rest of us!  Even if he hasn't achieved his goal yet I hope he can pull some insights out of the work he has done so far that will be useful.

[ChrisWev]

It has never been done - and never will be done - by a person with little or no natural timing, athletic ability or capacity to learn from his own mistakes.

This a bit of a silly blanket statement, basically you can try cover anyone with that "he failed, oh yeah it's because he had no natural ability". Timing can be learnt the same as muscles can be grown and you learn from experience or good teachers. No cricketer just wakes up and times the ball like Brian Lara or runs like Usain Bolt.

It's harder for older people to start anything as they generally have less time to practice, a family to support, don't recover quick enough and don't have the funds or support to do it.

With golf it's probably one of the very few sports where it would by physically possible as it's not a game that is particularly hard on the body like Football, American Football, Tennis etc. Someone with enough money could pay the best coach, dietician, personal trainer, get a good assistant and enter every tourney under the sun.

Dan has based himself in the wrong place with the wrong weather and doesn't have enough money to get the support/ club and coach he needed to do it. I would bet he would likely be scratch/ +HCP by now if he had that.

[Nosevi]

[QUOTE]  It's not impossible to get from where Dan is now to play on tour at a reasonably high level - it's been done before.[/QUOTE] It has never been done - and never will be done - by a person with little or no natural timing, athletic ability or capacity to learn from his own mistakes. It has certainly never been done by a person who lies to himself the way Dan does. I'm not going to argue that point with you Shorty (mostly because you have a point). I think you'd need the right attitude coupled with some innate ability/potential in order to even get to mini tour level let alone the PGA Tour.

[quote name="ZappyAd" url="/t/45853/the-dan-plan-10-000-hours-to-become-a-pro-golfer-dan-mclaughlin/3480#post_1202401"]I didn't know anything about this guy until reading this thread but it raises the question what would a reasonable goal have been for his plan?  Was / is becoming a scratch player attainable for anyone with a lot of hard work?  Seems from the graphs that even that is quite a way off.  I'm all for aiming high so that even if you miss you still achieve something great (was that in a movie somewhere?) but at the moment it seems like all that work has got him to a level that a lot of other people are able to attain without dedicating themselves to that degree?   It does seem like there are some lessons to learn here about what and how to practice and maybe when not to practice that could help the rest of us!  Even if he hasn't achieved his goal yet I hope he can pull some insights out of the work he has done so far that will be useful. [/quote] I don't think there is a number you could put on it, everyone is different. I think everyone has a certain amount of potential and if you went about a programme correctly you'll hopefully reach that potential ........... but you'll never surpass it and that potential is diffetent for everyone.

[nevets88]

• @RandallT - that Australian talk show where black shirt guy said he would never achieve his goal because mental (which I disagree), maybe that's what prompted Dan Plan to do the mental strength clinic. Vision fifty four something.

• The plan made me wonder whether I should quit golf. I would say I'm in the same boat as him talent wise, maybe less but less time. But imho, he was getting bad information and would not pivot.

• Maybe one day, there will be accurate ways to measure the range of potential you have for golf and that will help steer some people from a pursuit that they cannot excel in because of their physical abilities.

[RandallT]

@RandallT - that Australian talk show where black shirt guy said he would never achieve his goal because mental (which I disagree), maybe that's what prompted Dan Plan to do the mental strength clinic. Vision fifty four something.

The plan made me wonder whether I should quit golf. I would say I'm in the same boat as him talent wise, maybe less but less time. But imho, he was getting bad information and would not pivot.

Maybe one day, there will be accurate ways to measure the range of potential you have for golf and that will help steer some people from a pursuit that they cannot excel in because of their physical abilities.

Fair point. I had remembered that it was a talent thing, not so much a mental/competitive juices thing.  Funny how I remember what I want to remember.  But still a couple priceless camera angles to catch Dan's reaction. Dan was somewhat stoic, but a bit of a wince on his face may have been an impetus for his Vision54 sessions, you are right.

[Lihu]

[LIST] [*] @RandallT - that Australian talk show where black shirt guy said he would never achieve his goal because mental (which I disagree), maybe that's what prompted Dan Plan to do the mental strength clinic. Vision fifty four something. [/LIST] [LIST] [*] The plan made me wonder whether I should quit golf. I would say I'm in the same boat as him talent wise, maybe less but less time. But imho, he was getting bad information and would not pivot. [/LIST] [LIST] [*] Maybe one day, there will be accurate ways to measure the range of potential you have for golf and that will help steer some people from a pursuit that they cannot excel in because of their physical abilities. [/LIST]

I think what you stated before is probably true, that a good percentage of people with proper training can get to a single digit handicap. It's about maximizing your own potential. Getting to the highest level you can with the talent you have, and that's a goal we can all make. Regarding playing in the professional level, the way Shorty put it is perfect. Unless you have the precise timing and the natural ability to learn from mistakes down to the minutest details, it will be impossible to get to a plus handicap. Talent for golf seems to be to have exeptional hand to eye coordination, precise timing and the ability to tell when it is off and the atheletic ability to hit powerful shots continuously. Not trying to state that it's an impossible goal, but it's really hard and I'm guessing that only a small percentage of people can do it (more than 0.001%, anyway). This all doesn't mean you have to give up golf, though. If you can play at a decent level, the sport is really fun and satisfying. When you get to the point where that double bogey "Just happens" and move on to par or birdie or even come close to some birdies for the rest of the holes, it is fun. Golf is hard, but it is supposed to be fun or satisfying or both. The only thing I learned from the Dan Plan is how to make this game miserable for yourself.

[nevets88]

Some dialogue from the movie, Without Limits, about talent.

825
00:59:39,619 --> 00:59:41,644
You really believe
you can do anything?

826
00:59:41,855 --> 00:59:43,015
Absolutely.

827
00:59:43,256 --> 00:59:44,621
Fly a plane?

828
00:59:44,825 --> 00:59:46,816
Sure, if l wanted.

829
00:59:47,127 --> 00:59:49,823
You read the manual,
get the best teacher...

830
00:59:50,030 --> 00:59:51,463
...and take off!

831
00:59:53,700 --> 00:59:57,602
Not everything can be learned.
Some things take talent.

832
01:00:00,941 --> 01:00:02,602
Let me tell you something.

833
01:00:03,477 --> 01:00:05,741
Talent is a myth.

834
01:00:06,513 --> 01:00:10,313
A dozen guys on the team have
more talent in their little finger.

835
01:00:10,784 --> 01:00:12,877
Then how come you can beat them?

836
01:00:14,454 --> 01:00:16,581
A little secret l learned
a long time ago...

837
01:00:16,790 --> 01:00:18,451
...in Coos Bay.

838
01:00:18,859 --> 01:00:20,224
ln the woods.

839
01:00:22,863 --> 01:00:25,093
So what's your little secret?

840
01:00:25,298 --> 01:00:27,528
What? The one you learned
a long time ago.

841
01:00:33,373 --> 01:00:36,706
l can endure more pain
than anyone you've ever met.

1188
01:27:31,823 --> 01:27:33,017
What's my problem?

1189
01:27:33,225 --> 01:27:34,658
Vanity!

1190
01:27:35,193 --> 01:27:38,219
lnsisting you have no talent
is the ultimate vanity!

1191
01:27:38,430 --> 01:27:42,059
No talent, no limits.
lt's all an act of will, right?

1192
01:27:42,267 --> 01:27:44,497
l couldn't do it.
Leave it at that!

1193
01:27:44,703 --> 01:27:46,193
l got news for you!

1194
01:27:46,404 --> 01:27:48,895
All the will
in the world won't get...

1195
01:27:49,107 --> 01:27:53,100
...a person in a million to run
a 3:54 mile! That takes talent!

1196
01:27:53,311 --> 01:27:57,213
And talent in a runner is tied
to specific physical attributes!

1197
01:27:57,582 --> 01:28:01,780
Your heart probably pumps more blood
than anyone else's on the planet.

1198
01:28:01,987 --> 01:28:03,887
That's the fuel for your talent.

1199
01:28:04,089 --> 01:28:06,523
lt'd take a hammer to hurt your bones!

1200
01:28:06,725 --> 01:28:08,920
lt's the foundation of your talent.

1201
01:28:09,127 --> 01:28:11,994
Your talent is not some
disembodied act of will.

1202
01:28:12,197 --> 01:28:14,791
lt's literally in your bones.
lt has limits.

1203
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:16,558
Be thankful for your limits.

1204
01:28:16,768 --> 01:28:19,703
They're as limitless
as they get in this life.

1205
01:28:19,905 --> 01:28:21,236
Good night.

[Lihu]

So, I can see this analogous to a 12 handicap beating a 7 handicap in a high pressure situation.

841
01:00:33,373 --> 01:00:36,706
l can endure more pain I can endure more pressure. . .
than anyone you've ever met.

[nevets88]

So, I can see this analogous to a 12 handicap beating a 7 handicap in a high pressure situation. 841 01:00:33,373 --> 01:00:36,706 [S]l can endure more pain[/S]  I can endure more pressure. . . than anyone you've ever met. ;-)

I see it as his mistaking his willpower for his talent. He's got lots of it but he's not acknowledging it.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

So, I can see this analogous to a 12 handicap beating a 7 handicap in a high pressure situation.

841

01:00:33,373 --> 01:00:36,706

l can endure more pain  I can endure more pressure. . .

than anyone you've ever met.

I see it as his mistaking his willpower for his talent. He's got lots of it but he's not acknowledging it.

Rather than mistaking willpower for talent, could it be that he thinks talent is overrated because he beat people who have way more talent than he with pure willpower?