Should the "Wind moves ball after putter is grounded" rule be changed?

[Canuck]

I think the best way to handle this is just stick to your routine. This type of thing doesn't happen a lot. If you are playing a course like Pebble Beach for example the winds can be crazy. Most pros will adjust there pre round routine so they are ready to putt in those condition. Course management is key and knowing your surroundings whether its gusty winds, crappy greens or whatever you need to be prepared. I also agree with some of the comments about marking your ball even on really short putts. a few extra seconds to mark, clean your ball and reset is good course management and should be done routinely. Who knows maybe there is a piece of mud on your ball you didn't see or you want to fix an old ball mark by the hole. The rule is fine and is just one of those rules that can bite you in the a$$ if you aren't aware.

[bunkerputt]

Haven't read thread before replying, so apologies in advance.... I live it Texas and play on fast greens. My answer is yes. In my view, the current rule relies on the golfer's word to say whether he/she grounded the putter, and whether ball movement was perceived. As we saw in this tournament, both the grounding and the ball movement weren't discernible on camera, so it was entirely up to the player. If you are already relying on the player's honesty, why not let them honestly say whether they caused the ball to move or not? You either trust the player, or you don't. You shouldn't have a number of rules trusting the player and them some of them to prevent dishonesty. It's not the place of the rules to make people honest, only to give a set of guidelines to follow. This rule is lame in that regard.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Haven't read thread before replying, so apologies in advance.... I live it Texas and play on fast greens. My answer is yes. In my view, the current rule relies on the golfer's word to say whether he/she grounded the putter, and whether ball movement was perceived. As we saw in this tournament, both the grounding and the ball movement weren't discernible on camera, so it was entirely up to the player. If you are already relying on the player's honesty, why not let them honestly say whether they caused the ball to move or not? You either trust the player, or you don't. You shouldn't have a number of rules trusting the player and them some of them to prevent dishonesty. It's not the place of the rules to make people honest, only to give a set of guidelines to follow. This rule is lame in that regard.

There are several judgement calls like this every round. Are the vast majority of players honest enough that their word alone could be trusted? Maybe.

I'm not sure if CBS was doing something similar to what I suggested a while back when they didn't take HD footage of an impending ball marking process. The only good view was from the blimp (or was it a tower?) in this case. Even then, it was pretty clear the ball moved after he grounded his club. Did the player cause the movement? We can't prove he didn't, but he likely had as much effect on that ball moving as other players recently penalized gained an advantage over the field by brushing loose impediments, grounding their club, or flipping a piece of turf back toward the divot.

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by iacas

That's a poor example: why should you be able to control what your opponent does? Do the rules also prevent your opponent from making a great shot?

Perhaps so, the point is not to control what the other guy does, but that you can't control what he does. You can hit a perfect approach shot and still have him hit it between you and the hole. Like you can hit a perfect approach shot and have a gust move your ball after adressing it, giving you bogey or par instead or birdie or par.

My point is that things you absolutely can't control should at length not punish you. Sudden gust of wind can mess up a shot, but you have the option of waiting a bit and reconsidering. If you ground the club and the ball moves, you've done nothing, but still get a penalty shot. We can never give even conditions to everyone of course, but a ball that moves without anyone touching it is something I don't think you should be penalized for. I've said it so many times now, I'm sure my point has gotten through. No point in arguing over opinions.

[VOX]

Every player has it in his power to avoid this penalty. On windy days, I tell my fellow competitors or opponents that I won't be grounding my putter during the round and I don't. Jack N. never grounded his putter because he saw no reason to risk a penalty even if it was just a "small percentage of the time".

[B-Con]

There are valid arguments for and against, that's for sure. On the other hand, these cases where wind moves the ball after address mainly concern professionals. We amateurs hardly ever play on such greens where it might happen, on the other hand we are the ones most likely to move our ball accidentally.

It is for sure this issue has been dealt with a number of times amongst those who make the Rules but so far no change has taken place. There must be reasons for that as well but it does not mean the Rule is as good as it could be. Changing the definition of address or similar to take away penalty on the green as suggested by one of the previous posters might be a good idea. It would put green and the rest of the course in a different position but there are already such things in the Rules. The only concern I have is if this kind of liberation would be abused. Would we end up on having vast discussions about whether 'Paddy's' or 'Simpson's' ball was moved by him or by the wind instead of discussing whether it moved at all?

All in all, these events are rare and it is perfectly allowed to learn how to address without grounding the club, so maybe the professional golfers should learn how to do it. Jack Nicklaus could learn it and play well, why not others?

This is kind of a backwards approach. The player can't ground his club without possibly being faulted for something that isn't his fault, so the solution is for him to avoid the situation? That's a work-around to a problem, not a solution. That's what a player does when the rules committee strikes down an appeal to change the rule, not the rules committee's justification for keeping the rule. The argument is that there is no causality between the grounding of the putter and the moving of the ball, but the rules imply there is. Therefore, the rules should be amended to better reflect reality. [quote name="Fourputt" url="/forum/thread/46177/should-the-wind-moves-ball-after-putter-is-grounded-rule-be-changed/18#post_600197"]

As I said in my previous post - you don't (or you shouldn't) ground the club in any other situation where it might cause the ball to move, so why should putting be exempt. And why should it be the only time when you are exempt from blame when you cause the ball at rest to move? If I am in the process of taking my stance, and the ball is oscillating in the wind, I guarantee you that I'm not going to ground my putter. The way I see it, the pros can do the same thing, or take the penalty when the ball does move. They are supposed to be more skilled than I am, so why not show it?

[/quote] How is grounding your putter going to cause the ball to move? I have not seen an example of this. You can't move the ball by touching the green behind it unless you push so hard on the green that you affect the ground under the ball. When you're playing on a green where a 10-yard pitch doesn't leave a pitch mark, you can't move the ball by grounding the putter unless you touch the ball. The movement of the ball physically [i]can't[/i] be attributed to the putter being on the ground. If that's so, why assess penalties?

[zeg]

Originally Posted by B-Con

How is grounding your putter going to cause the ball to move? I have not seen an example of this. You can't move the ball by touching the green behind it unless you push so hard on the green that you affect the ground under the ball.

When you're playing on a green where a 10-yard pitch doesn't leave a pitch mark, you can't move the ball by grounding the putter unless you touch the ball. The movement of the ball physically can't be attributed to the putter being on the ground. If that's so, why assess penalties?

Don't be so sure of that.  It's happened to me once or twice, and I've only been playing much for a couple of years.  On a slope on a moderately soft green (doesn't have to be as soft as you're implying), it can happen.

[B-Con]

Don't be so sure of that.  It's happened to me once or twice, and I've only been playing much for a couple of years.  On a slope on a moderately soft green (doesn't have to be as soft as you're implying), it can happen.

You let the putter head rest on the ground a full half inch (or more) from where the ball touched the ground, and the depression from the putter head in the grass propagated out far enough to reach the ball? Hm... I'll accept that that [i]can[/i] happen, but only in very, very special circumstances. Most greens can't do that, even if it's sloped or wet. A grounded putter under its own weight has a lot of disruption it has to make to affect the ball. I've played soft greens and never come close to having the ball move after the putter was grounded. It's going to be less of a problem then wind moving the ball. Now, if you push down on the club, even a little, that's a completely different story because the putter only weighs a couple pounds by itself, and it's easy to triple the force on the ground by giving even the slightest of pressure to the putter -- then I believe you could easily move the ball. But a standard putter only has about a pound of pressure per square inch of contact with the ground at most, that's not very much. Consider that when you walk you're exerting 5-7lbs/sqr-inch on each step -- and with many more square inches of that area. If your putter could move the ball from address, your foot should be able to move it from a few inches away. So, my thought is: Should the rules really be penalizing players in one scenario to properly penalize the ones in the trampoline-ish green scenario? If the player clearly causes the ball to move, they should be penalized. But should we assume that a grounded club is to blame? That seems like the exception -- an exception that we can probably distinguish quite easily, because if your putter head moved it, you could probably tell. As iacas pointed out above, we already rely on players to accurately determine these things. [edit] Re-worked my thought.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by B-Con

How is grounding your putter going to cause the ball to move? I have not seen an example of this.

I've seen examples of clumsy people (a lot of golfers are not actually very good at sports) bump their ball while setting up to putt. If we were playing for money I'd have called them on it. Unless I'm watching a competitor like a hawk, I might not even notice they bumped the ball slightly. I would probably notice if the ball moved though.

I say if a player grounds their putter and the ball moves they should be penalized, because even if they are adament they didn't cause it, we also know that not everyone is as honest and trustworthy as we are.

[B-Con]

I've seen examples of clumsy people (a lot of golfers are not actually very good at sports) bump their ball while setting up to putt. If we were playing for money I'd have called them on it. Unless I'm watching a competitor like a hawk, I might not even notice they bumped the ball slightly. I would probably notice if the ball moved though.

I say if a player grounds their putter and the ball moves they should be penalized, because even if they are adament they didn't cause it, we also know that not everyone is as honest and trustworthy as we are.

But we already rely on golfers to call themselves for penalties. I don't think the rules should be written for those who are inept at it. If a golfer can't tell he bumped the ball, do you think he's going to notice if the ball to moves a couple millimeters due to the depression of the putter? However much you cause the ball to move from grounding will probably be the same if you had barely bumped it. You will probably notice both or not notice both. Golfers can cheat or accidentally mis-count strokes in so many places already I don't see this as a concern.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by B-Con

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I've seen examples of clumsy people (a lot of golfers are not actually very good at sports) bump their ball while setting up to putt. If we were playing for money I'd have called them on it. Unless I'm watching a competitor like a hawk, I might not even notice they bumped the ball slightly. I would probably notice if the ball moved though.

I say if a player grounds their putter and the ball moves they should be penalized, because even if they are adament they didn't cause it, we also know that not everyone is as honest and trustworthy as we are.

But we already rely on golfers to call themselves for penalties. I don't think the rules should be written for those who are inept at it. If a golfer can't tell he bumped the ball, do you think he's going to notice if the ball to moves a couple millimeters due to the depression of the putter? Golfers can cheat or accidentally mis-count strokes in so many places already I don't see this as a concern.

Does it concern me as much as someone grounding their club slightly in a bunker, flipping some sod toward a divot while their ball rolls back down a hill, or stretching with a weighted donut mid-round? Probably.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by B-Con

You let the putter head rest on the ground a full half inch (or more) from where the ball touched the ground, and the depression from the putter head in the grass propagated out far enough to reach the ball?

Yeah, around here the greens are sort of like a fairly thin skin of nice turf on top of the soil below.  It can be like walking on a carpet, where the turf itself isn't damaged by impact, but shifts a bit relative to the ground underneath and certainly can transmit a vibration more than you'd think if you picture the ground as a solid block.  The trampoline analogy is fairly good.

In my personal experience, I think most of the times the ball has moved after address have been caused by me, not by the wind or some unseen outside agency, so it seems like a reasonable assumption.  But, of course, that's just my experience---if cases where it's clearly not the player's doing are more abundant overall, maybe the rule is unfair.  I find that a touch unlikely, though.  Occam's Razor suggests that the guy standing over the ball is most likely the cause of the movement, even if you're not sure how.

[B-Con]

Does it concern me as much as someone grounding their club slightly in a bunker, flipping some sod toward a divot while their ball rolls back down a hill, or stretching with a weighted donut mid-round? Probably.

Not saying they shouldn't be penalized, just that we shouldn't penalize based only on evidence of a potential infraction. It would kind of be like penalizing someone for standing in a bunker before a stroke and having sand on the sole of their club. Maybe they grounded their club, the sand is evidence that perhaps they did, but maybe they rested it outside the bunker where it was sandy, or maybe it was from a previous bunker shot. They have to know if they grounded their club. And it doesn't really help anyway. The player at address is either going to notice what happens both ways or not notice both ways. And from your perspective you'll see the same thing both ways. The only difference is when they don't notice and you do notice, then with the current rule you tell them they are subject to a stroke penalty, whereas under a new rule perhaps they would only be advised that they may have incurred a stroke penalty. Both ways it's still your word against his, except now you can be more confident in whether or not he's right. [quote name="zeg" url="/forum/thread/46177/should-the-wind-moves-ball-after-putter-is-grounded-rule-be-changed/54#post_600943"]

Yeah, around here the greens are sort of like a fairly thin skin of nice turf on top of the soil below.  It can be like walking on a carpet, where the turf itself isn't damaged by impact, but shifts a bit relative to the ground underneath and certainly can transmit a vibration more than you'd think if you picture the ground as a solid block.  The trampoline analogy is fairly good.

In my personal experience, I think most of the times the ball has moved after address have been caused by me, not by the wind or some unseen outside agency, so it seems like a reasonable assumption.  But, of course, that's just my experience---if cases where it's clearly not the player's doing are more abundant overall, maybe the rule is unfair.  I find that a touch unlikely, though.  Occam's Razor suggests that the guy standing over the ball is most likely the cause of the movement, even if you're not sure how.

[/quote] Hm, must be a regional thing. Well, I think that if the player is at address for a putt they can reasonably be expected to notice if they move the ball. I've done it, and I know when I've done it. I've had the wind do it too. But I can't remember ever standing at address and watching the ball move and wondering to myself "gee, how'd that happen?" Even if it happened, if there's no wind, it was obviously the player since balls don't move on the green for no reason. The player should be the default assumption, but not the mandatory assumption.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by B-Con

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Does it concern me as much as someone grounding their club slightly in a bunker, flipping some sod toward a divot while their ball rolls back down a hill, or stretching with a weighted donut mid-round? Probably.

Not saying they shouldn't be penalized, just that we shouldn't penalize based only on evidence of a potential infraction. It would kind of be like penalizing someone for standing in a bunker before a stroke and having sand on the sole of their club. Maybe they grounded their club, the sand is evidence that perhaps they did, but maybe they rested it outside the bunker where it was sandy, or maybe it was from a previous bunker shot. They have to know if they grounded their club.

And it doesn't really help anyway. The player at address is either going to notice what happens both ways or not notice both ways. And from your perspective you'll see the same thing both ways. The only difference is when they don't notice and you do notice, then with the current rule you tell them they are subject to a stroke penalty, whereas under a new rule perhaps they would only be advised that they may have incurred a stroke penalty. Both ways it's still your word against his, except now you can be more confident in whether or not he's right.

Not sure I follow. Do you mean "now" now or "if they overturn this rule" now? If someone address their ball and it moves, they're to be penalized currently. Pretty simple. There can be a question and debate over whether the ball moved or whether they grounded the putter, but cheaters tend to cheat a lot and there are probably other ways they do it too. Whatever.

[B-Con]

Not sure I follow. Do you mean "now" now or "if they overturn this rule" now? If someone address their ball and it moves, they're to be penalized currently. Pretty simple. There can be a question and debate over whether the ball moved or whether they grounded the putter, but cheaters tend to cheat a lot and there are probably other ways they do it too. Whatever.

I was ambiguous -- yes, I meant "now" as in "if the rule where changed".

[B-Con]

A [url=http://www.barryrhodes.com/2011/05/bad-rule-18-2b-to-be-revised.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm;_medium=feed&utm;_campaign=Feed%3A+barryrhodes%2FnsJY+%28Rules+of+Golf%29]rule change may be under consideration[/url].

[iacas]

Originally Posted by B-Con

A rule change may be under consideration.

Yeah, we know .

[B-Con]

Yeah, we know .

Whoops -- I actually read that post. Some of us just have short memories. :-P At any rate, there's [URL=http://www.barryrhodes.com/2011/05/bad-rule-18-2b-to-be-revised.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm;_medium=feed&utm;_campaign=Feed%3A+barryrhodes%2FnsJY+%28Rules+of+Golf%29]talk the rule may be amended[/URL].