Tom Wishon on being fit for clubs

[bunkerputt]

I really don't see how the shoe size analogy is even in the same category.  Foot size is a static measurement.  You can't measure a golf swing.  If someone's clubs are too short, do they make a perfect swing and whiff it every time?  People play the clubs they have.  Unless you know how your body wants to move and make that move and then measure the distances, you're going to engage in a compensation of some form to make whatever length club you have in your hands work for you.

[KaiL]

I don't see the analogy of shoe size fitting either.

You yourself knows whether the shoe fits or not.

But, its the club fitter who tells you the club they sell you fits you!!

I have started a thread in the Golf talk section about whether club fitting only fits your current swing, good or bad.  It may actually reenforce a bad swing.

[newtogolf]

Actually for runners, the analogy is pretty accurate.  Average people don't realize the differences in running shoes and importance of being fitted any more than they do about golf clubs.   People have different foot shapes (high arch, medium arch, low arch) (narrow, regular, wide and extra wide), when they run their feet can pronate, supinate or be neutral.  When you pick running shoes you need to know your foot shape and running style or the shoes you select can cause damage to your feet, knees, hips as well as shin splints.

There are different types of running shoes;

• Motion Control
• Stability
• Cushion
• Light weight training shoes
• Light weight racing shoes
• Racing Flats

Any of these shoes will feel fine when you slip them on in the store, but after a 10 mile run you might be in for a big surprise if you picked the wrong one.

Originally Posted by KaiL

I don't see the analogy of shoe size fitting either.

You yourself knows whether the shoe fits or not.

But, its the club fitter who tells you the club they sell you fits you!!

I have started a thread in the Golf talk section about whether club fitting only fits your current swing, good or bad.  It may actually reenforce a bad swing.

[WUTiger]

Quote:

I am firmly in the "learn the fundamentals" camp.  But I also firmly believe that to get the best out of your game, your clubs need to fit you as well. ...

Beginners can benefit from a static fitting - a basic fitting which checks to make sure the club length and lie angle match your physical build and stance. Detailed custom fittings, however, don't do beginners much good. Beginners have an unstable swing, and until the swing settles in they basically have a different swing every day. This is advice from three different teaching pros I have talked to.

For beginners, and mid- to high HDCP players, the key is to get clubs which won't hurt your game.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by glock35ipsc

Not sure I have a real purpose to this post, other than I loved the way Tom Wishon put in to perspective the importance of being fitted for the right clubs.  I am reading his book "The Search for the Perfect Driver" at the moment.  Excellent book so far!

I am firmly in the "learn the fundamentals" camp.  But I also firmly believe that to get the best out of your game, your clubs need to fit you as well.  And I do not believe that always means the big well know name brands, or the most expensive ones.  Tweaky said it best in an earlier post, there is a world of golf beyond the major name brands.

That's a great quote by Wishon... I think that some people forget or just don't realize how important it is to be fit for your clubs.  That being said, a lot of times those bad tee shots are because of the swing... even a properly fit driver won't cure a bad swing.  This is why the two biggest pieces of advice you'll see on this forum are "get fit" and "take lessons."

[golfernc]

Quote:

I am firmly in the "learn the fundamentals" camp.  But I also firmly believe that to get the best out of your game, your clubs need to fit you as well. ...

Beginners can benefit from a static fitting - a basic fitting which checks to make sure the club length and lie angle match your physical build and stance. Detailed custom fittings, however, don't do beginners much good. Beginners have an unstable swing, and until the swing settles in they basically have a different swing every day. This is advice from three different teaching pros I have talked to.

For beginners, and mid- to high HDCP players, the key is to get clubs which won't hurt your game.

Your last sentence is absolutely correct, however your first statement is saying the opposite.

Static fitting is basically equivalent to buying off the rack clubs. You cannot determine lie angle by looking at the club at address. You also should determine the length of the club dynamically.  You are also leaving out one of the most important factors when being fit; loft.  Static fitting is just something big box manufactures have created to make people think they are getting custom fit. The swing is a motion...so standing their taking measurements statically makes no sense.

beginners will benefit the most from getting the correct clubs to help them build a better golf swing.  Its vital as a beginner to understand ball flight...if your clubs are not giving you correct feedback, its very difficult to understand what your doing in your swing.

If you took the dynamic lie angle of a beginner, then took it 8 months later...you would see that it has not changed much, if at all.   People seem to think that a beginner has the ability to change lie angle drastically every swing...not very likely.  This is why its important to get the correct dynamic lie of the irons so the beginner can start to develop, not spend their time trying to make clubs work for them.

What teachers should understand is that if the clubs are not promoting what they are teaching, they might as well not teach anything at all. You cant tell someone to get better aim, and hit down on it..blah blah blah....then the person does all that, and the ball goes right on them. If you don't switch the clubs, everything you taught that person goes out the door. If the clubs reward them for a good swing...then they will start to repeat that good motion...that's how you get to be a better golfer.

High handicappers are also a great example...many times they have been playing for yrs. How can someone who plays all the time never improve? Because they spend all their time changing things in their swing, reading all the golf tips...they know what a good swing looks like, but when they try to do that they get penalized by bad ball flight.( if their clubs are not correct)   IF their pro never told them that their clubs are off...then they will never understand what they are doing wrong. Then they are always trying to fix a result...your plane is off, you aim left or right, you do this, you do that....when in actuality they do all that because they have never got to the root of the problem. Those are all results from one main problem. They learn compensations to mask the problem..but will always struggle with consistency.  Its like going to the doctor and them prescribing you medicine to help with a lot of symptoms your having.....if that doctor never figured out you have a tumor...your never going to get better.

The other long term problem with this is: these high handicappers have developed a swing to fit their equipment...so let say they do go get fit....at this point if the fitter is not also a teacher ( or at least evaluating the swing), they will fit them to a poor swing. Many times the fitter will give them clubs to mask their problems as well. (for example many people getting fit to low degree drivers with lower SS)  This is why its so beneficial when the teacher is a fitter/ and the fitter is a teacher.  The best thing to do would be correct any compensations this person has been making ( because of the clubs)  put them into their best balanced athletic motion...then fit them to clubs that help promote a better swing.  ( the whole point is..its easier to just get into the correct clubs to start with so you don't have to correct all the compensations later..)

I am not saying if you get fit properly you are going to be the best golfer in the world...its just about giving the person the right tools to move forward. Also if you are not fit properly you can also learn to play... people that are really athletic  have done it this way. The problem is with the majority of golfers who are not super athletic, or have a natural ability...they might never reach their full potential. ( the majority of golfers cannot break 100)

[loopflow]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

That's a great quote by Wishon... I think that some people forget or just don't realize how important it is to be fit for your clubs.  That being said, a lot of times those bad tee shots are because of the swing... even a properly fit driver won't cure a bad swing.  This is why the two biggest pieces of advice you'll see on this forum are "get fit" and "take lessons."

I think the best fitters are the ones that at least understand the swing if not a teaching pro themselves.  I recently was fit for irons at the local muni which runs a 'golf academy' and the fitting included trying several brands and models of heads, shafts and even some grips with overwraps.  In the end I was fit with Razr X Tours, flighted Rifle shafts, New Decade grips with 3 overwraps and a half hour evaluation when the clubs came in was included.  Best of all, all the fitting services were free if I purchased the irons through their shop and their prices were competetive.  It was a great service and I was shown the difference with the new irons and given a few drills to help keep my hands ahead of the ball at impact which they pointed out I need to work on.

I guess my point is that there are great, experienced fitters out there that know how to deal with all types of players and get them the clubs they need.  I never expected that the local muni would be the best source (not being a course snob here but there are much better courses in the area), but a recommendation from a friend really played out well for me. A few phone calls and website searches confirmed the tip, and I'm confident that I have the right clubs now - enough that I'm going back later this summer for wedges.  It is great advice to treat finding the right fitter as importantly as finding the right fit.

[ERdiesel]

I'm pretty sure a pga tour pro can put a good swing on my clubs without having them fitted for him.  Not even just a pga pro, but a good golf teacher even could probably pick up any of his studen'ts clubs and still get the ball out there nicely.  Is it optimum?  No, but i'm sure he can still kick my butt on the course with my own clubs not fitted for him, or even my gf's clubs which are even more not fitted for him.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by ERdiesel

I'm pretty sure a pga tour pro can put a good swing on my clubs without having them fitted for him.  Not even just a pga pro, but a good golf teacher even could probably pick up any of his studen'ts clubs and still get the ball out there nicely.  Is it optimum?  No, but i'm sure he can still kick my butt on the course with my own clubs not fitted for him, or even my gf's clubs which are even more not fitted for him.

I agree. Sometimes for the heck of it I play with my wife's clubs. I "smooth out" my normal rhythm and tempo a little - and they have more bounce than I like to feel - but I hit nearly identical shots...

That doesn't mean they're optimal for me (duh) but it's not like being fitted is going to take you from shooting 110 to breaking 90. Or probably even breaking 100.

[XMScott]

My friend has a set of custom clubs. He spent upwards of 2k on them.

So i have to ask What is the going rate on a fitted set of clubs? I have Ping G5 irons and G10 woods i got off shelves. In total i spent about 800. How much to get fitted clubs!

[glock35ipsc]

I paid $468 for my first set of fitted irons, $78 a club for Cally X-22's 5-PW, including the fitting.  My current set was assembled for just under $250.  I haven't been fitted for woods as of yet because I am happy with how the driver and 3 wood are working.

[glock35ipsc]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

This is why the two biggest pieces of advice you'll see on this forum are "get fit" and "take lessons.

True, and I am very surprised at the seemingly negative posts regarding getting fit.  Kind of surprised me.  I guess people read waaaaay more into what he said than I did.

[Liam84]

I've read this thread carefully and understand the benefits of being fitted correctly.

My problem is I live in a place where it's absolutely impossible to get fitted properly. The options available are limited to a static fitting in most cases, and there's not really the possibility of trying many heads/shafts combinations either in irons or woods at the places that promise a "real fitting" experience.

Next month I'm travelling to the US to attend the US Open at Congressional and wanted to really take advantage of this opportunity and get fitted in the best possible way.

What do you recommend as far as places to do it and the approach in general to the whole process?

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by ERdiesel

I'm pretty sure a pga tour pro can put a good swing on my clubs without having them fitted for him.  Not even just a pga pro, but a good golf teacher even could probably pick up any of his studen'ts clubs and still get the ball out there nicely.  Is it optimum?  No, but i'm sure he can still kick my butt on the course with my own clubs not fitted for him, or even my gf's clubs which are even more not fitted for him.

Yepppp ......

Originally Posted by iacas

I agree. Sometimes for the heck of it I play with my wife's clubs. I "smooth out" my normal rhythm and tempo a little - and they have more bounce than I like to feel - but I hit nearly identical shots...

That doesn't mean they're optimal for me (duh) but it's not like being fitted is going to take you from shooting 110 to breaking 90. Or probably even breaking 100.

Anyone with a decent swing, will hit fine shots with all the clubs other players have in their bags, fitted or not ....... at least I can and I am no guru, just make a few practice swing and hit it ..... out she goes....... 1.5" too short ...... so what pick a 5 iron and hit it with your 8 iron swing and hoppa...... it is no big deal at all.

I have nothing against being fitted, but let's not get toooooo keen on it !

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by Liam84

I've read this thread carefully and understand the benefits of being fitted correctly.

My problem is I live in a place where it's absolutely impossible to get fitted properly. The options available are limited to a static fitting in most cases, and there's not really the possibility of trying many heads/shafts combinations either in irons or woods at the places that promise a "real fitting" experience.

Next month I'm travelling to the US to attend the US Open at Congressional and wanted to really take advantage of this opportunity and get fitted in the best possible way.

What do you recommend as far as places to do it and the approach in general to the whole process?

One of the better-known clubfitters in the DC area is in Bethesda, just down the road from Congressional CC.

http://golfcarecenter.com/index.htm

Never used them myself but heard Wade's name mentioned a number of times when I lived in the DC area.

There's also a Wishon guy with solid credentials a bit further out of town in Frederick.

http://www.customclubsoffrederick.com/

This is a good video to give you an idea of what you should be expecting, from a guy who is probably one of the top club fitters in the world.

[Shindig]

My friend has a set of custom clubs. He spent upwards of 2k on them.

So i have to ask What is the going rate on a fitted set of clubs? I have Ping G5 irons and G10 woods i got off shelves. In total i spent about 800. How much to get fitted clubs!

Custom clubs from most OEMs have a cost in time, not money. Ping, in particular, was an early pioneer in custom-fitting for everyone. Go to a Ping demo day, tell them which clubs you'll be buying (if I were to purchase a new set of irons and went with Ping, I'd get some S56s) and ask for a fitting. They'll get you length, lie, flex, makeup, etc, usually convenient to order via their color system. Unless you're getting premium shafts or something, the cost isn't any more than if you bought off the shelf. Now, your friend's $2000 set... how custom are they? There's one custom-fitting house that used to be here (I think they went out of business, but I'll avoid saying who just in case) that would set up everyone with the same shaft if re-shafting, and same club-head if new purchasing. They had a fancy fitting system, complete with launch monitors and everything, but everyone I know that went there ended up in the same set.

[Shagbag]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Anyone can be fit for a major manufacturer clubs, but he insinuates that very few people except for professional fitters in his company know how to properly.

Professional baseball and hockey players have bats and hockey sticks created specifically for their individual attributes while the rest of us that play for fun to semi-seriously seem to do okay with off the shelf equipment.  I know it's not an apple to apple comparison, but I think he makes golf club fitting seem a bit more complicated than it needs to be for his own financial gain.

Yes anyone can be fit for major manufacturer clubs, but in most cases the fitting process is at best a partial fitting.  Custom club fitting is certainly not rocket science.  But it does require a substancial investment for the proper tools and equipment not to mention the knowledge and experience to evaluate each individual player to make sound fitting recommendations; coupled with the ability and attention to detail necessary to properly assemble the clubs.  Most professional clubfitters have a tremendous investment in launch monitors, gauges, loft/lie machines, frequency analyzers, moi counters, shaft profile data software which is required to properly evaluate and fit an individual player.

The fitting process with a professional custom clubfitter and that of the major manufacturer is different to say the least. A major manufacturer will certainly measure swing speeds and launch angles and the individuals physical characteristic's and make recommendations as to shaft flexes and in some cases, limited shaft options.  You'll get a lie adjustment and have your clubs made to a specific length.  Do you think this is a true custom fitting?  Do you think these are the only options you'll get from a qualified customer fitter?  Do you think these companies are going to "weight sort" and "align" shafts?  Are they going to take the time to evaluate launch angles, spin rates and swing speeds to search for a shaft profile that is optimal?  If they don't have a contract with a specific shaft company already, they aren't going to recommend a shaft from that company as part of the deal.  If you'd benefit from a 1° closed or open face angle on a driver, you think they will take the time to hand pick a head for you?   Just a few questions for you off the top of my head.

Have you ever disassembled a major band set of irons and measured the individual components?  I have.  My findings and the findings of others who have done this, would surprise you....and not in a positive way.  But you and others will continue to purchase this equipment because these companies spend millions of dollars a year in promotions and advertising to convince you to do so.

You think Wishon attempts to make custom fitting more complicated than it needs to be?  That's a fairly broad statement and I'm not sure what you meant.   Are you impling that every aspect that goes into a true custom fitting isn't important?

And in closing....I simply what to do better than "OK".

[Liam84]

Originally Posted by Stretch

One of the better-known clubfitters in the DC area is in Bethesda, just down the road from Congressional CC.

http://golfcarecenter.com/index.htm

Never used them myself but heard Wade's name mentioned a number of times when I lived in the DC area.

There's also a Wishon guy with solid credentials a bit further out of town in Frederick.

http://www.customclubsoffrederick.com/

This is a good video to give you an idea of what you should be expecting, from a guy who is probably one of the top club fitters in the world.

You have no idea how helpful this is, I can't thank you enough for all this info.

Thanks again!