Guy Wastes $3k on Golf Instruction, Never Applies Himself, Blames Instructors

[blackxpress]

Originally Posted by glock35ipsc

And it's going to take sliiiiiiightly more than "10-15 hours of practice and/or play over the past two years"

Assuming, that is, that you're practicing the right things which is where lessons come into play. Practicing the wrong things just reinforces bad habits.

[deronsizemore]

The comments on the video at YouTube are funny too. Someone mentioned he'd take him up on the offer and this is what he replied with:

Quote:

With all due respect to you, I know the S&T; golf swing as well as any S&T; instructor. I have watched the dvd's over 100 times, read the book studiously (pre-ordered it before it went public), and I went to S&T; school twice. Quite frankly, I love the swing. But I never could perform the S&T; golf swing. Mostly straight pushes, some slices. NEVER a push draw. S&T; is not for me. Thanks, though.

Sounds like maybe this guy won't allow lessons to work for him because he already knows everything? He knows the S&T; swing as good as any instructor because he read the book and got the DVD's? Maybe I should go take lessons from this guy.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Taggsy

If Mr Pissage has the patience and humility to start from the beginning in that fashion, only moving on to the next stage of the swing when he has mastered the preceding stage, then I think he'd easily keep his scores under 100 after a year or so of practice and dedication.

I've been hesitant to say anything about this because I know a fair amount of what Jeff's done, "worked on," been told, etc. Simply put, he hears something, tries it for a few minutes (I'm exaggerating, but barely) and then wants to move on to the next thing.

The best practicers out there might hit 50 balls in two hours. But every swing will be done with a purpose. Dave just played at the PNC (Professional National Championship, or the National Club Pro) and he hit 25% of his golf balls (and about 60% with the driver) on the practice range making a move that sent the ball 100 yards, max. It's a piece he really needed to feel and exaggerate that week, and he struck the ball really well all week.

I'll practice with a massive bucket of balls and might not hit a single 7-iron over 100 yards in the air while practicing something. Today I hit some balls trying to feel my arms coming down fast and my shoulders staying really, really closed. I hit some balls thin. I hit some fat. The ones I hit solidly pushed way, way right and drew, or the occasional one pushed right and hooked hard. It was one of the best practice sessions I've had in awhile, despite never hitting a ball at a target, never taking a full swing, and being on a mat.

Jeff doesn't have that discipline.

By way of trying to encourage him at one point a year or two ago, I told him that "if he can't do S&T;, he can't play golf." It was meant as an encouraging comment, because I felt then (and still do) that one of the strengths of S&T; is that it's relatively simple swing, it's relatively easy to repeat, and every piece has a well understood purpose and range of acceptability. If Jeff could have mastered fundamental #1 (commonality #1) - hit the ball, then the ground - he'd have broken 100. Jeff has since twisted what I said around to some rude version, which is not how it was said nor how he took it initially.

Instead, he'd get advice, kind of work on it a little... and the next day look for the next thing. No S&T; instructor spent a lot of time working on his grip. No S&T; instructor spent a lot of time working on "where you go from here" (the early backswing stuff).

At the end of the day, the guy hits 0 greens in regulation and takes 44 putts per round. If you're taking 44 putts per round, then perhaps you're really not cut out for golf, because even relatively new golfers can chip the ball to 10-20 feet and two-putt virtually every hole. 44 putts is NEVER one-putting and three-putting EIGHT TIMES per round. That's really bad.

We've tried to help Jeff. We stopped, because he has a way of making you regret trying to help him. He doesn't do the work, doesn't practice properly, and then blames you when he's not gotten better.

I think one of his YouTube comments is that he can teach someone "accounting" or something, but accounting isn't golf. You can "learn" accounting. There's not much physical movement, you just basically "memorize" some things. Learning something like that is far and away different than "learning" to play good golf.

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

The comments on the video at YouTube are funny too. Someone mentioned he'd take him up on the offer and this is what he replied with:

That's a disappointing response (Jeff's).

FWIW, I'm fairly certain that by 10-15 hours I think he means per week. But I'd guess that virtually none of that time was spent practicing properly. And no doubt his head is filled with 100 different things right now, when as some of you have said, his swing isn't terrible (then again, he's not swinging at a ball with a target in this video, either).

Good luck, Jeff - whether you quit or not.

[gjsuicide]

Originally Posted by iacas

At the end of the day, the guy hits 0 greens in regulation and takes 44 putts per round. If you're taking 44 putts per round, then perhaps you're really not cut out for golf, because even relatively new golfers can chip the ball to 10-20 feet and two-putt virtually every hole. 44 putts is NEVER one-putting and three-putting EIGHT TIMES per round. That's really bad.

Iacas, while I do find a lot of value in most things that you post, I hope you are exaggerating this point.  I guess I can over look the 0 greens in reg thing, as you didn't seem to put a lot of emphasis on that.  But 44 putts per round? EASY to do.  I'm not a good golfer, but I can approach 100 on a good day.  You're forgetting about the 4 putt, and one putting is difficult if you think about it.  You've either sunk a longer putt or put it close with a chip or approach, which can easily be just as difficult. Sure, just by dumb luck you can one putt or hit a green in reg once per round with a little practice, but what if luck is not on your side?   I think you have forgotten what it is like to not be good, or maybe have natural talent for the game and have never experienced it.  Either way, if you are instructing people in the real world or just here on the forums, put yourself in the beginner/less talented players shoes.  To say that someone who three putts 8 times a round is "perhaps not really cut out for golf" is a bit extreme don't you think?  Maybe I took it too personally...

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by iacas

I've been hesitant to say anything about this because I know a fair amount of what Jeff's done, "worked on," been told, etc. Simply put, he hears something, tries it for a few minutes (I'm exaggerating, but barely) and then wants to move on to the next thing.

The best practicers out there might hit 50 balls in two hours. But every swing will be done with a purpose. Dave just played at the PNC (Professional National Championship, or the National Club Pro) and he hit 25% of his golf balls (and about 60% with the driver) on the practice range making a move that sent the ball 100 yards, max. It's a piece he really needed to feel and exaggerate that week, and he struck the ball really well all week.

I'll practice with a massive bucket of balls and might not hit a single 7-iron over 100 yards in the air while practicing something. Today I hit some balls trying to feel my arms coming down fast and my shoulders staying really, really closed. I hit some balls thin. I hit some fat. The ones I hit solidly pushed way, way right and drew, or the occasional one pushed right and hooked hard. It was one of the best practice sessions I've had in awhile, despite never hitting a ball at a target, never taking a full swing, and being on a mat.

Jeff doesn't have that discipline.

By way of trying to encourage him at one point a year or two ago, I told him that "if he can't do S&T;, he can't play golf." It was meant as an encouraging comment, because I felt then (and still do) that one of the strengths of S&T; is that it's relatively simple swing, it's relatively easy to repeat, and every piece has a well understood purpose and range of acceptability. If Jeff could have mastered fundamental #1 (commonality #1) - hit the ball, then the ground - he'd have broken 100. Jeff has since twisted what I said around to some rude version, which is not how it was said nor how he took it initially.

Instead, he'd get advice, kind of work on it a little... and the next day look for the next thing. No S&T; instructor spent a lot of time working on his grip. No S&T; instructor spent a lot of time working on "where you go from here" (the early backswing stuff).

At the end of the day, the guy hits 0 greens in regulation and takes 44 putts per round. If you're taking 44 putts per round, then perhaps you're really not cut out for golf, because even relatively new golfers can chip the ball to 10-20 feet and two-putt virtually every hole. 44 putts is NEVER one-putting and three-putting EIGHT TIMES per round. That's really bad.

We've tried to help Jeff. We stopped, because he has a way of making you regret trying to help him. He doesn't do the work, doesn't practice properly, and then blames you when he's not gotten better.

I think one of his YouTube comments is that he can teach someone "accounting" or something, but accounting isn't golf. You can "learn" accounting. There's not much physical movement, you just basically "memorize" some things. Learning something like that is far and away different than "learning" to play good golf.

That's a disappointing response (Jeff's).

FWIW, I'm fairly certain that by 10-15 hours I think he means per week. But I'd guess that virtually none of that time was spent practicing properly. And no doubt his head is filled with 100 different things right now, when as some of you have said, his swing isn't terrible (then again, he's not swinging at a ball with a target in this video, either).

Good luck, Jeff - whether you quit or not.

So you've tried to help him here at the forums? Or in person? Sounds like he's just one of those people that thinks golf should be easy. You just go out and swing a club, how hard could it be? If you don't practice, you won't get better. If the number one player in the world (Duval) can fall as far as he did to where he cannot even break 80 to save his life, just shows you what golf can do to people.

[max power]

I agree that saying someone is "not cut out for golf" because they 3 putt 8 or more times is extreme and unfair.  But do I think they'll ever be good at golf?  Probably not.

Originally Posted by gjsuicide

Iacas, while I do find a lot of value in most things that you post, I hope you are exaggerating this point.  I guess I can over look the 0 greens in reg thing, as you didn't seem to put a lot of emphasis on that.  But 44 putts per round? EASY to do.  I'm not a good golfer, but I can approach 100 on a good day.  You're forgetting about the 4 putt, and one putting is difficult if you think about it.  You've either sunk a longer putt or put it close with a chip or approach, which can easily be just as difficult. Sure, just by dumb luck you can one putt or hit a green in reg once per round with a little practice, but what if luck is not on your side?   I think you have forgotten what it is like to not be good, or maybe have natural talent for the game and have never experienced it.  Either way, if you are instructing people in the real world or just here on the forums, put yourself in the beginner/less talented players shoes.  To say that someone who three putts 8 times a round is "perhaps not really cut out for golf" is a bit extreme don't you think?  Maybe I took it too personally...

[imtomtomim]

I've sent athletes like that home who have spoken like that.  What are they expecting, a hand out magic ability where the most talented have applied exponentially more focused effort just to get slightly better results?  I'm sorry but I have no tolerance for people who throw hissy fits like that.  Immature, inappropriate, and just shows off their own bad attitude and approach on life.  First when I hear this from an athlete, I'll try to talk them out of it and give some confidence, but if they're going to keep that act up, I just turn them my back and give them their two options, work on it with me, or don't.  Teachers can only show you the way, they can't give you the skills, that's up to the student.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by gjsuicide

Iacas, while I do find a lot of value in most things that you post, I hope you are exaggerating this point. I guess I can over look the 0 greens in reg thing, as you didn't seem to put a lot of emphasis on that.  But 44 putts per round? EASY to do.

Not with a little practice. You may very well be the exception, but if you miss all 18 greens, that means you're pitching and chipping. It's reasonable to expect that pitching and chipping you'll average about 20 feet from the hole. Some "pitches" will be from 70 yards and others will be from right near the green.

So from 20 feet, I think it's pretty lousy to three-putt eight times and never one-putt.

I hear what you're saying, but honestly, 30 minutes of practice per week (out of the 10-15 he spent) practicing the short game properly would make this a virtual impossibility. Not only would the 20 foot number shrink, but so would the total putts.

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

So you've tried to help him here at the forums? Or in person?

I think you were asking me. Never on this forum. Elsewhere. Never in person.

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Sounds like he's just one of those people that thinks golf should be easy. You just go out and swing a club, how hard could it be? If you don't practice, you won't get better. If the number one player in the world (Duval) can fall as far as he did to where he cannot even break 80 to save his life, just shows you what golf can do to people.

Jeff thinks that the golf swing is "knowledge." That's part of it, but it's not "mental knowledge" - it's also what you might call "physical knowledge" too. Not knowledge of physics, but knowledge of making your body do things.

His comment about how he understands the S&T; swing as well as any instructor (leaving aside the preposterous nature of that statement - it's really rather ludicrous) is telling, I think. He seems to think that because he has this mental knowledge, he should be able to "do" it. But he's never put the proper effort into performing the drills given to him by various instructors. He's never trained his body. He's "learned" things in his brain but not in his muscles, if you know what I mean.

Originally Posted by imtomtomim

I've sent athletes like that home who have spoken like that.  What are they expecting, a hand out magic ability where the most talented have applied exponentially more focused effort just to get slightly better results?  I'm sorry but I have no tolerance for people who throw hissy fits like that.  Immature, inappropriate, and just shows off their own bad attitude and approach on life.  First when I hear this from an athlete, I'll try to talk them out of it and give some confidence, but if they're going to keep that act up, I just turn them my back and give them their two options, work on it with me, or don't.  Teachers can only show you the way, they can't give you the skills, that's up to the student.

We had a student come to us last year that we basically had to kick out. He was depressing all of us, and in being depressed, he was ripping us, himself, the people on the range, and so on. He was making really nice strides but was so down on himself and what he was doing because he thought he'd get instantly 10x better. Despite the pictures, the video, the shot shape, etc. he wasn't convinced that he'd gotten better enough (when in reality he was one of the most improved students we'd had in awhile - he really made some big jumps).

Anyway, the guy seemed similar. He wanted to stop doing the drills that were making him better and immediately begin to see massive results in his full swing. After enough time, when it became obvious this was how he wanted to be and he could not change, we kicked him out.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by iacas

His comment about how he understands the S&T; swing as well as any instructor (leaving aside the preposterous nature of that statement - it's really rather ludicrous) is telling, I think. He seems to think that because he has this mental knowledge, he should be able to "do" it. But he's never put the proper effort into performing the drills given to him by various instructors. He's never trained his body. He's "learned" things in his brain but not in his muscles, if you know what I mean.

I know exactly what you mean. I'm there now myself. In my mind, I can visualize and do all of the drills given to me, e.g., flying wedge, etc. In reality, my body says: "Oh no you didn't! that's not what you've done for the last 24 years... don't even try it." But, it's a work in progress and I feel like I'm working in the right direction.

[Hollister]

Ha, ha, Jeff - he seemed to be a nice guy on the forum. In a way I can understand him. Mind over matter. I think the older you get, the more you'll think that brains and experience speed up any learning process. After one year S&T; I do now firmly believe that it is the other way round.

Why do kids learn that fast? They do not think much about a motion they are about to learn. They just look, copy, repeat,  look, copy, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. Count the hours a kid spends learning table tennis/soccer/golf/tennis/... You'll never ever spend that much time on anything when you are in your 50ies.

I tried to pm Jeff, but he shut down his forum account back then. Guess age makes you loose that playful attitude.

Well, pros, I just beg you to be patient with us "mind over matter" guys, since we don't know better... :D

[iacas]

He's back. And yet he's gone at the same time. :-)

What I said above still holds true: http://thesandtrap.com/t/47743/guy-wastes-3k-on-golf-instruction-never-applies-himself-blames-instructors/18#post_619541 . Jeff continues to confuse "understanding" (mentally) something with "ability to do it." In this video he seems to be admitting to it. :-P

[Deryck Griffith]

The biggest mistake anyone can make in golf is having unrealistic expectations.  The second you start expecting too much too fast in this game will be the second you fail.

This guy obviously has expectations that are beyond the point of practicality.  Considering how frustrating this game is, many others can find themselves going down this road...maybe not as far as this guy but down the same road at least.  Hopefully it'll be a lesson for some that are struggling now to stick with it vs. blame everyone around them.

[bunkerputt]

This guys problems are not golf related.  For a breath of fresh air for thread viewers, here's the attitude of a professional athlete to help you calm down:

[poser]

I can't stand people like him.  All want something for nothing and just expect things to happen for them without putting any work into it.

[newtogolf]

All those gimmick products are nothing but expensive cologne on body odor.  He's trying to buy a golf swing and is angry he can't.   I agree with him golf is a frustrating sport, but his overall approach seems to be to find a short cut rather than put the time and effort into developing a sound swing.

[B-Con]

Jeff continues to confuse "understanding" (mentally) something with "ability to do it." In this video he seems to be admitting to it. :-P

Playing off that point, how does he know he's followed the instruction he's received? Unless I missed something, he doesn't talk about actually watching himself on video. If he's mad at the instruction he's received from various places, how does he know he's actually doing it? If he did what he was told to do and had proof of it, and he still stunk, then who wouldn't encourage him to leave -- if not also poorly review -- the instruction he received? But without something to show him, "Here's what you should do, here's what you're actually doing", how would he know he's doing what he claims he's doing? If instruction says "do X" and he doesn't do "x", then, ultimately, who's fault is that?

[Doctorfro]

This guy annoys me to no end.  I can tell you he's not real smart.  Check out the last video.  He says it's a 100 degrees out.....and he's wearing long pants pulled up over his belly button.  But seriously, we all know that this guy will never be any good as long as he has "golf ADD".  Add to that fact that i just think some people have terrible hand/eye and you've got a terrible golfer.  Has he ever learned the physics of what makes a golf ball curve or spin?  Has he ever just planted his feet, kept his head still and swung around his spine one time (spine/posture looked poor in earlier vid)?  I mean we could speculate all we want on this guy but he has no hope, especially with that attitude.  Dude, go play bridge with your wife and friends.

[sk golf]

Lessons don't get you better, practice does.  Lessons are where you learn what to practice.