Club Declared "Out of Play" Prior to Start of Round

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

He stated "before the start of a round" the main word being "before"

And as we've discussed, the Rules don't care what you do "before" the round. You cannot "declare" your club out of play.

The Decision basically lists the exact question, then says "is this player penalized?" The answer: "YES." The rules then clearly state "There is nothing in the Rules to permit carrying, during a round, an excess club declared out of play before the round."

Originally Posted by jshots

Iacas can you point us to somewhere that actually says that the rule applies only after the round has started and also that a round is only considered started when the first ball is put into play off of the first tee?

Read the Rules or above. This has already been answered. You can stand around with 47 clubs before your round begins. Declarations made before the round, however, don't count for anything.

[jshots]

I still can't find where in the rules it says that rules don't care what you do "before" a round.

By what you have said is the start of a round you gave the example that you can tee your ball anywhere you want, it doesn't matter until you make the first stroke. Just by that example alone, the rules do in fact care what you do "before" your round. In the same respect there is a rule that allows you to declare a club out of play.

It is also possible that maybe the rules here aren't 100% black and white. I'm sure you'll say they are but there are a lot of things that even after reading the rules are really kind of unclear.

[johnthejoiner]

Originally Posted by iacas

And as we've discussed, the Rules don't care what you do "before" the round. You cannot "declare" your club out of play.

The Decision basically lists the exact question, then says "is this player penalized?" The answer: "YES." The rules then clearly state "There is nothing in the Rules to permit carrying, during a round, an excess club declared out of play before the round."

Read the Rules or above. This has already been answered. You can stand around with 47 clubs before your round begins. Declarations made before the round, however, don't count for anything.

There is nothing in the Rules to permit carrying, during a round, an excess club

But there is a punishment and this is how it works,  standing on the first tee you find you have 15 clubs and before you've hit your shot the Excess Club is Declared Out of Play.
There is no  breach of Rules but if any time during that round the excess club is used you are disqualified

[michaeljames92]

Didn't Iacas just say you can't ever carry an extra club regardless of whether you hit it or not?

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

There is nothing in the Rules to permit carrying, during a round, an excess club

But there is a punishment and this is how it works,  standing on the first tee you find you have 15 clubs and before you've hit your shot the Excess Club is Declared Out of Play.

There is no  breach of Rules but if any time during that round the excess club is used you are disqualified

[carpediem4300]

Seems quite simple to me really,

you turn up with 15 clubs, you declare "this is out of play" and remove it from your bag and place it somewhere like your car etc,...start your round...no penalty

you turn up with 15 clubs, you declare "this is out of play" and keep it in your bag,...start your round, BAM penalty for carrying excess clubs on the course, you are a douche for not taking it when you have the chance.

you turn up with 15 clubs, dont realise, start your round,....declare it "out of play" and then decide what penalty should apply, i.e. it hasnt been used means a stroke penalty or whatever, you did use it and you get DQ

atleast that is what ive taken from this thread and the rulings.

Jonthejoiner - not sure why but you keep cropping up in various threads completely mis-reading posts and replying with utter nonsense, why?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by jshots

I still can't find where in the rules it says that rules don't care what you do "before" a round.

It's in the same place that covers the Rules of Major League Baseball, the rules of etiquette, and local, state, and federal tax laws, among other things. The Rules of Golf don't care about what you do when you're not playing golf, with the previously noted exception of practicing on the course.

Originally Posted by jshots

By what you have said is the start of a round you gave the example that you can tee your ball anywhere you want, it doesn't matter until you make the first stroke. Just by that example alone, the rules do in fact care what you do "before" your round. In the same respect there is a rule that allows you to declare a club out of play.

I said you can put your ball on a tee in the ground anywhere you want before you start your round. It's perfectly legal, and you're not penalized until you make a stroke at the ball from the wrong position. Until such time, you can discard the club OR put the tee back behind the markers.

When a stroke is made at the second tee, you're considered to have begun play at the second hole. When a stroke is made at the first tee, you're considered to have begun play at the first hole, and thus, assuming you're starting on the "first tee," the round itself. There are a number of rules that make this clear.

Originally Posted by jshots

It is also possible that maybe the rules here aren't 100% black and white. I'm sure you'll say they are but there are a lot of things that even after reading the rules are really kind of unclear.

I'm sorry that you feel they're unclear to you. Find me the rule that says you can declare a club out of play before the round starts, but still carry it around without penalty. You won't. Then find me the rule that says you're not allowed to use the after shave in the men's locker room without leaving a tip. :-P

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

But there is a punishment and this is how it works,  standing on the first tee you find you have 15 clubs and before you've hit your shot the Excess Club is Declared Out of Play.

There is no  breach of Rules but if any time during that round the excess club is used you are disqualified.

John, you're wrong. There's no two ways about it.

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

you turn up with 15 clubs, you declare "this is out of play" and remove it from your bag and place it somewhere like your car etc,...start your round...no penalty

you turn up with 15 clubs, you declare "this is out of play" and keep it in your bag,...start your round, BAM penalty for carrying excess clubs on the course, you are a douche for not taking it when you have the chance.

you turn up with 15 clubs, dont realise, start your round,....declare it "out of play" and then decide what penalty should apply, i.e. it hasnt been used means a stroke penalty or whatever, you did use it and you get DQ

Yep, pretty much it.

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

Jonthejoiner - not sure why but you keep cropping up in various threads completely mis-reading posts and replying with utter nonsense, why?

That seems to be his schtick. It will not last forever.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

There is nothing in the Rules to permit carrying, during a round, an excess club

But there is a punishment and this is how it works,  standing on the first tee you find you have 15 clubs and before you've hit your shot the Excess Club is Declared Out of Play.

There is no  breach of Rules but if any time during that round the excess club is used you are disqualified

Here is the pertinent decision.  D. 4-4c/1:

4-4c/1  Excess Club Declared Out of Play Before Round and Placed on Floor of Golf Cart

Q. Before the start of a round, a player discovers that there are 15 clubs in his golf bag. He declares one of the clubs out of play, removes it from his bag, places it on the floor of his golf cart and begins the round. Is the player subject to penalty?

A. Yes, for starting the round with more than 14 clubs. Rule 4-4c has to do with declaring an excess club out of play on discovery of a breach after a round has started. There is nothing in the Rules to permit carrying, during a round, an excess club declared out of play before the round.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

He stated "before the start of a round" the main word being "before"

Doesn't matter. He has the 15th club with him ( floor of golf cart )

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

Seems quite simple to me really,

you turn up with 15 clubs, you declare "this is out of play" and remove it from your bag and place it somewhere like your car etc,...start your round...no penalty

you turn up with 15 clubs, you declare "this is out of play" and keep it in your bag,...start your round, BAM penalty for carrying excess clubs on the course, you are a douche for not taking it when you have the chance.

you turn up with 15 clubs, dont realise, start your round,....declare it "out of play" and then decide what penalty should apply, i.e. it hasnt been used means a stroke penalty or whatever, you did use it and you get DQ

atleast that is what ive taken from this thread and the rulings.

Jonthejoiner - not sure why but you keep cropping up in various threads completely mis-reading posts and replying with utter nonsense, why?

The player either starts the round with 14 clubs (or less) or with 15 (or more).  Pretty black and white. The player can't "declare a club out of play" then keep it in his bag. He must remove the club prior to teeing off. So as the round begins, there is no club in the player's to be declared anything - in or out of play. Seems clear to me too. So why refer to the declaration rule pre-round?  Either the club is there or it isn't.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by jshots

I still can't find where in the rules it says that rules don't care what you do "before" a round.

You can't find it because it isn't there... The rules really don't care what you do before the start of the round and that is why there is rules regarding it (with the previously noted exception of practicing on the course).  For all intents and purposes the rules do not begin until you have begun your round, therefore a rule pertaining to something prior to the start of your round would be irrelevant anyways.  As others have said, if you could declare a club "out of play" before you started your round how soon before does that declaration need to be made.

Lets do this, for everybody who thinks that you can declare a club out of play before the start of a round, if I ever play with you and I have 15 clubs in my bag, my 52 degree gap wedge is out of play.

[ochmude]

I really don't even see why such a possible declaration might even exist.  If you're playing a casual round, declare away.  DQ's don't really have any affect on casual rounds anyway, so just make the declaration and save yourself the time of walking back to the locker room or your car or whatever.  If you're playing in a competition, you probably didn't decide on a whim to compete, so you had time to check your bag the evening before, or even right when you pulled your clubs out of your trunk.  If you failed to do so, you deserve the penalty.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by ochmude

I really don't even see why such a possible declaration might even exist.  If you're playing a casual round, declare away.  DQ's don't really have any affect on casual rounds anyway, so just make the declaration and save yourself the time of walking back to the locker room or your car or whatever.  If you're playing in a competition, you probably didn't decide on a whim to compete, so you had time to check your bag the evening before, or even right when you pulled your clubs out of your trunk.  If you failed to do so, you deserve the penalty.

That's a good point and I think one that's been addressed.  Between friends or in a casual round, it's whatever... at least it would be for me.  If I was playing with my brother and he said, "hey I brought my back up 3 wood to hit at the range, but I'm not gonna use it for the round" I'd be ok with that.  In a tournament though it needs to be placed somewhere like the car or locker room or something like that.  I think that this thread was just a simple "if a player does declare a club out of play before a round does he incur a penalty" (yes, because the rules have no bearing before a round starts and therefore the declaration is pointless).

[jshots]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

Lets do this, for everybody who thinks that you can declare a club out of play before the start of a round, if I ever play with you and I have 15 clubs in my bag, my 52 degree gap wedge is out of play.

I fail to see how this is a problem... you don't gain any advantage.

I agree with all of you minus the fact that there is no proof that the rules don't apply before a round starts. And then on top of that even if you could prove to me that the rules don't apply prior to your round you still have to prove to me that your round starts the moment the first stroke is made...

for some reason a club declared out of play (which as we've discussed is in the rules) doesn't count when I make my first stroke but if I had put my tee in front of the tee markers (also in the rules) which was also done before the first stroke, that does count. Can someone explain the difference between these two things to me?

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by jshots

for some reason a club declared out of play (which as we've discussed is in the rules) doesn't count when I make my first stroke but if I had put my tee in front of the tee markers (also in the rules) which was also done before the first stroke, that does count. Can someone explain the difference between these two things to me?

Disclaimer:  This is just my interpretation of the rules, and I'm just some random guy on the internet, so take it with a grain of salt.

No, that doesn't count either.  You're free to tee the ball up 2 inches off the green if you'd like.  However, the moment the first stroke is made, as defined by the Rules, all things must be in compliance with the Rules and all things prior to that moment are irrelevant to the round.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by ochmude

Disclaimer:  This is just my interpretation of the rules, and I'm just some random guy on the internet, so take it with a grain of salt.

No, that doesn't count either.  You're free to tee the ball up 2 inches off the green if you'd like.  However, the moment the first stroke is made, as defined by the Rules, all things must be in compliance with the Rules and all things prior to that moment are irrelevant to the round.

Yes this is exactly my point. You can put the ball wherever you like before your first stroke. Where you put it matters, as its part of the rules of golf as to where you are allowed to put the ball. In the same respect it is part of the rules that you are allowed to declare a club out of play an take a penalty for having it in your bag up to that point, so why does this magically not matter when where you put your ball on the first tee does.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by jshots

I fail to see how this is a problem... you don't gain any advantage.

I agree with all of you minus the fact that there is no proof that the rules don't apply before a round starts. And then on top of that even if you could prove to me that the rules don't apply prior to your round you still have to prove to me that your round starts the moment the first stroke is made...

for some reason a club declared out of play (which as we've discussed is in the rules) doesn't count when I make my first stroke but if I had put my tee in front of the tee markers (also in the rules) which was also done before the first stroke, that does count. Can someone explain the difference between these two things to me?

Ok... to start, the fact that the rules make no mention of what you can or can't do before the start of the round (with the previously noted exception) is proof that the rules don't apply.  If the rules did apply the rules would say so.

I don't know what's with you and this tee thing but I'll try to explain it to you so it's clear... you can put your tee in front of the markers on the first hole, no penalty.  You can then put your ball on that tee, no penalty.  The reason that there is no penalty for this is that you haven't taken a stroke... if you leave the ball there, in front of the markers on the tee and then hit it from there you've now incurred a penalty for playing from the wrong spot; it wan't until you made the stroke that the round started and that is when you received the penalty, not when you stuck the tee in the ground.

While declaring a club out of play is in the rules, the rules start when the round starts, and reading that rule there is a penalty that goes along with it.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by ochmude

Disclaimer:  This is just my interpretation of the rules, and I'm just some random guy on the internet, so take it with a grain of salt.

No, that doesn't count either.  You're free to tee the ball up 2 inches off the green if you'd like.  However, the moment the first stroke is made, as defined by the Rules, all things must be in compliance with the Rules and all things prior to that moment are irrelevant to the round.

Can I give my opponent advice before we tee off? Anything more than a rules heads up, like "Dude, you're about to tee up in front of the markers with your 15th club."

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by jshots

Yes this is exactly my point. You can put the ball wherever you like before your first stroke. Where you put it matters, as its part of the rules of golf as to where you are allowed to put the ball. In the same respect it is part of the rules that you are allowed to declare a club out of play an take a penalty for having it in your bag up to that point, so why does this magically not matter when where you put your ball on the first tee does.

There is nothing magical here... Look, it doesn't matter where you put your ball before you tee up, you only incur the penalty if you play from the wrong spot because that is in the rules...

Just as it doesn't matter where you tee the ball before you start, it doesn't matter if you declare a club out of play before you start.  What matters is what happens after you start; if you teed the ball in front of the markers (or more than two club lengths behind) you'd be penalized for playing from the wrong spot, if you have more than 14 clubs you'd get a penalty for that.