What happened to etiquette in golf?

[ghalfaire]

I think the situation when you are in the wrong fairway (or close enough to get hit by people on the tee) you should stay out the the way until the golfers on the tee have all hit.  That is the normal practice (etiquette if you prefer). If you're the one on the tee and someone is in your fairway and apparently does not understand this,  don't hit into them.  There is never an excuse to knowingly endanger another golfer regardless of how stupid  or inattentive they are.  Just like you can get a ticket for "failure to yield the right of way" in an auto accident, you are required to yield the right of way on the golf course also.  That too is the etiquette (and the law most places).

[camper6]

Originally Posted by onemind

As a beginner who has only played on public courses (even at my advanced age of fifty) I don't really understand the extreme anger with slow play.  I'm not saying it's fun waiting at the tee box, but it also seems like some groups are racing like hell to finish eighteen.  Not sure that's how I want to play the game.

It's only my opinion but I think if you took a poll, most golfers would complain about slow play and how long the round took.

A five hour round and waiting on each hole is not how anyone I know want's to play the game.

[onemind]

I guess the ideal would be a relaxed rate of play without any waiting.  There's definitely a point where people need to pick up and move on,.

Originally Posted by camper6

It's only my opinion but I think if you took a poll, most golfers would complain about slow play and how long the round took.

A five hour round and waiting on each hole is not how anyone I know want's to play the game.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by onemind

As a beginner who has only played on public courses (even at my advanced age of fifty) I don't really understand the extreme anger with slow play.  I'm not saying it's fun waiting at the tee box, but it also seems like some groups are racing like hell to finish eighteen.  Not sure that's how I want to play the game.

One thing that tends to annoy me is when I'm playing as a single on a very wide-open course, and there is a single or twosome behind me that appear to be playing speed golf.  Once I actually let a twosome play through because they were playing so fast that I felt rushed despite nobody else being on the course.  I hadn't hit any extra balls up to that point, but I wanted to.  I understand if people have limited time to play, but rushed golf doesn't seem fun to me.

Brandon

[Yukari]

I think you are mis-characterizing sentiments of many, if not most, of the TST members here.  People tend to get frustrated at those that play slow, with the exception of a few, I don't think people get EXTREMELY ANGRY--just annoyed.

One of the main reason is waiting takes away your rhythm.  In addition, if you have to wait on every shot, you basically have to "warm up" again every time you have to hit.  Plus people pay to play golf not to wait around all day because some inconsiderate clod in front.  Their excuse is "I paid my money so I can take my time".  Hell, I paid my money but I didn't pay it to wait for a moron like you in front.

Originally Posted by onemind

As a beginner who has only played on public courses (even at my advanced age of fifty) I don't really understand the extreme anger with slow play.  I'm not saying it's fun waiting at the tee box, but it also seems like some groups are racing like hell to finish eighteen.  Not sure that's how I want to play the game.

[DocWu1948]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I think the situation when you are in the wrong fairway (or close enough to get hit by people on the tee) you should stay out the the way until the golfers on the tee have all hit.  That is the normal practice (etiquette if you prefer). If you're the one on the tee and someone is in your fairway and apparently does not understand this,  don't hit into them.  There is never an excuse to knowingly endanger another golfer regardless of how stupid  or inattentive they are.  Just like you can get a ticket for "failure to yield the right of way" in an auto accident, you are required to yield the right of way on the golf course also.  That too is the etiquette (and the law most places).

Encountered my first negative golf incident in eight years of golf this week.  Two guys drove over to see if the balls we were hitting in our fairway belonged to one of them. When we said 'negative", they immediately drive ahead of us down our fairway, still looking, and now we can't hit. Sheesh.

It gets worse. When they're about 100 yards away, one of them drops a ball and turns back at us to hit it. Maybe he was trying to angle back to his fairway on our right.  Maybe he wants to hit it over our heads. Whatever, we go to the middle to be safer. Yikes, he duffs it and the ball slices weakly to our left! Now they have to drive back past us, but not without veering off to look at the other two balls from our foursome.  The hitter was loudly bemoaning his rotten luck.  No apologies. No thanks. It's like the loud guy owned everything ...except for our four balls in the fairway. Hee hee.

My foursome just shrugged and went back to their game. No words spoken.  The guys I play with have taught me a  lot about manners, etiquette and conduct, as well as a lot of ribald jokes. I know I forget the jokes after a half hour, but hopefully the good conduct stays with me.

[Grumpter]

I don't think anyone enjoys feeling rushed but if the course is open just letting them through solves the issue for everyone involved. I wish I had all the time in the world to play this game but the truth is it can be hard to get 18 during the week with a 9-5 job. Recently played during a weekday with the owner of my company. Tee'd off just after 6am and only had one other riding twosome in front of us. 3.5 hours later later we were just finishing up the round. We were waiting on most every hole, it was just brutal for a wide open, short, easy course.

It's great if you have all the time in the world to play but others don't have that luxury. If the course is crowded it is beyond your control but if it's wide open it doesn't hurt any (I guess besides ego/pride?) to let the guys who could use to finish faster play on through.

[camper6]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

I don't think anyone enjoys feeling rushed but if the course is open just letting them through solves the issue for everyone involved. I wish I had all the time in the world to play this game but the truth is it can be hard to get 18 during the week with a 9-5 job. Recently played during a weekday with the owner of my company. Tee'd off just after 6am and only had one other riding twosome in front of us. 3.5 hours later later we were just finishing up the round. We were waiting on most every hole, it was just brutal for a wide open, short, easy course.

It's great if you have all the time in the world to play but others don't have that luxury. If the course is crowded it is beyond your control but if it's wide open it doesn't hurt any (I guess besides ego/pride?) to let the guys who could use to finish faster play on through.

That's a bummer.

Only advice I can give you is find out who that group was and make sure you get a tee time earlier than them.

You see some people think 3.5 hours is a normal round when they have all the time in the world.  But for a twosome in a cart with no one ahead of them?  No way.

What happened to etiquette on the golf course?

It has been replaced by confrontational golf.

The problem is that golf has become more popular over the years and more people play now.

In the good old days, we never need a tee time.   There was always lots of room and we could even take a break after nine holes and still maintain our place on the course.

You are never going to see that again.

[Grumpter]

It would be nice if it could be planned out like that but I just don't see any way. It's usually a day before decision from the boss "hey, I have a little free time tomorrow lets get 18 in before work". Signed up online for the second tee time of the day. No way to know who was in the first slot.

[camper6]

The only thing I can suggest if only two carts are out there at that time is drive up to them and ask if you can play through politely because you have to be at work.   If they say no just drive past them up to the next hole.

What the heck.  That early in the morning and you have to be back at work?

[bplewis24]

Sounds like somebody trying to squeeze in a quick 9 before work to me :)

[camper6]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Sounds like somebody trying to squeeze in a quick 9 before work to me :)

Nope.  It has already been explained that it took 3 1/2 hours.

[camper6]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I think the situation when you are in the wrong fairway (or close enough to get hit by people on the tee) you should stay out the the way until the golfers on the tee have all hit.  That is the normal practice (etiquette if you prefer). If you're the one on the tee and someone is in your fairway and apparently does not understand this,  don't hit into them.  There is never an excuse to knowingly endanger another golfer regardless of how stupid  or inattentive they are.  Just like you can get a ticket for "failure to yield the right of way" in an auto accident, you are required to yield the right of way on the golf course also.  That too is the etiquette (and the law most places).

On the golf course there is no "right of way".  You're just as responsible if you hit someone on the wrong fairway as you are right in front of you.  So where do get the "law in most places" from?  There is no hard and fast rule or law that I know of for someone wandering on to your fairway.  It's not the same as the rules of the road traffic situation.   The laws there are pretty specific.   So if the person is on the wrong fairway and stands out of the way until you hit and you do hit them.  Who do you think would be negligent in a law suit?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by camper6

On the golf course there is no "right of way".  You're just as responsible if you hit someone on the wrong fairway as you are right in front of you.  So where do get the "law in most places" from?  There is no hard and fast rule or law that I know of for someone wandering on to your fairway.  It's not the same as the rules of the road traffic situation.   The laws there are pretty specific.   So if the person is on the wrong fairway and stands out of the way until you hit and you do hit them.  Who do you think would be negligent in a law suit?

Nobody.  If he is standing well to the side as you say, he's probably smart enough to have taken shelter behind a tree or something.  If the ball appears to be headed his way, any normal player is going to yell "FORE!!!".  If in spite of all that he still gets hit, then it's just bad luck.  There is no negligence involved.

[camper6]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Nobody.  If he is standing well to the side as you say, he's probably smart enough to have taken shelter behind a tree or something.  If the ball appears to be headed his way, any normal player is going to yell "FORE!!!".  If in spite of all that he still gets hit, then it's just bad luck.  There is no negligence involved.

Just a minute now.  You are not clear of liability just because you holler FORE because it might be windy and he can't hear you.  Or he could be deaf. Or he doesn't see you.

No sir.  It's the responsibility of both people to make sure that no one gets hurt on a golf course.

Believe me.  I have seen more than one person hit with everyone hollering FORE.  And you're supposed to holler FORE before you hit the ball and make sure the person hears and sees you.   The ones I have seen hit really badly (On the opposite fairway) were unaware where the ball was coming from and looking up trying to find it in the air.

If you have ever seen someone hit by a ball you would never hit with someone in range of your drive no matter where they are standing.

There is no such thing as bad luck when it comes to a law suit.  Someone will be found liable for the court costs.

[DaSportsGuy]

Originally Posted by camper6

Just a minute now.  You are not clear of liability just because you holler FORE because it might be windy and he can't hear you.  Or he could be deaf. Or he doesn't see you.

No sir.  It's the responsibility of both people to make sure that no one gets hurt on a golf course.

Believe me.  I have seen more than one person hit with everyone hollering FORE.  And you're supposed to holler FORE before you hit the ball and make sure the person hears and sees you.   The ones I have seen hit really badly (On the opposite fairway) were unaware where the ball was coming from and looking up trying to find it in the air.

If you have ever seen someone hit by a ball you would never hit with someone in range of your drive no matter where they are standing.

There is no such thing as bad luck when it comes to a law suit.  Someone will be found liable for the court costs.

If you yell "FORE" you've done your part. Now if you deliberately hit into them, yelling "FORE" isn't gonna help you much if they get hit. You'll still probably be liable.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by camper6

Just a minute now.  You are not clear of liability just because you holler FORE because it might be windy and he can't hear you.  Or he could be deaf. Or he doesn't see you.

No sir.  It's the responsibility of both people to make sure that no one gets hurt on a golf course.

Believe me.  I have seen more than one person hit with everyone hollering FORE.  And you're supposed to holler FORE before you hit the ball and make sure the person hears and sees you.   The ones I have seen hit really badly (On the opposite fairway) were unaware where the ball was coming from and looking up trying to find it in the air.

If you have ever seen someone hit by a ball you would never hit with someone in range of your drive no matter where they are standing.

There is no such thing as bad luck when it comes to a law suit.  Someone will be found liable for the court costs.

No, that just isn't true.  If someone files a frivolous lawsuit, they are the ones who pay any associated costs.  And this would be considered frivolous.  If the player on the tee (or wherever he's hitting from) takes reasonable care, then the fault is on the guy who wandered where he wasn't supposed to be.  What would you say if the ball is already in the air when the guy comes out of the bushes?

Bottom line is - don't enter the wrong fairway until you know it's clear.  That may mean that you stay in the rough of your own hole until the oncoming players have all hit.  A golf course isn't a dangerous place, per se, but there can be dangerous situations and anyone who just stupidly wanders around the course without a care is inviting injury.  You can't put the blame on one player for another guy's stupidity.  Any judge would rule that there is an implied risk in just being on the golf course, and being someplace where you don't belong and where other players don't expect you to be puts the onus on you to use extra care not to turn that risk into an immediate danger.

[ghalfaire]

Well I would like to not get into the same argument that was on another thread.  So I am only going to address this once.  But the law in most places is pretty clear that if you harm someone through intent or gross negligence you can be held liable for the damage or injury.   Being on the golf course does not exempt you from those laws.   So if you're a lousy golfer and harm someone on the adjacent fairway by accident with a bad shot, you are not legally responsible.  That is because you had no intent, nor were you negligent and the other golfer assumed some responsibility when he showed up at the course.  But if someone is on your fairway and in range and you decide to just hit it over their head, but catch it a little thin and send a line drive into the group and hurt or kill someone, you're liable. That is because it was gross negligence to deliberately hit a drive in the direction of golfers in range of your drive knowing there is some probability of not hitting a good shot.   So while both were just bad shots in the former case there was no way to foresee that you would endanger anyone with a bad shot.  In the latter case it was entirely foreseeable that a bad shot could hurt someone so it was negligent to hit the shot even though it wasn't your intent to harm anyone.

Of course you're correct their is no legally defined "right of way" in golf.  Only etiquette and common sense that defines how we should behave on the course.  Of course their are players that don't know, and in some cases just don't care, about the common practice or etiquette.    But in society at large we attempt to hold people responsible for their actions, even when on the golf course.  So you are responsible for what you do there.   To knowingly put someone in danger or taking actions you should know would put someone else in danger can land you in court if that harms someone.

Originally Posted by camper6

On the golf course there is no "right of way".  You're just as responsible if you hit someone on the wrong fairway as you are right in front of you.  So where do get the "law in most places" from?  There is no hard and fast rule or law that I know of for someone wandering on to your fairway.  It's not the same as the rules of the road traffic situation.   The laws there are pretty specific.   So if the person is on the wrong fairway and stands out of the way until you hit and you do hit them.  Who do you think would be negligent in a law suit?